| |
| ▲ | benenrjdnz a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Deflation is a good thing, it rewards delayed gratification.
Those evil Keynesians have convinced the world a little bit of inflation is good. It isn’t. Losing purchasing power on your money is a bug. Nothing wrong with putting money under a mattress for 100y if the value of money is not evaporating. For most of human history the money was stable. It’s the disasters of 20th century wars that eroded the value, and 21st century lack of monetary discipline that keeps driving it down now. | | |
| ▲ | ngruhn a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It's nice when I do it. Not so nice when everyone else does it. If sitting on the money has better returns than running a supermarket, why run a supermarket? Any investment has to beat deflation. Why hire people? In fact maybe I should fire everyone to hold on to more capital and spend as little as possible... | | |
| ▲ | darkwater a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > If sitting on the money has better returns than running a supermarket, why run a supermarket? First of all, because not everyone starts with inherited wealth. Also because ideally running a supermarket should give you more money even in a deflationary world. Worst thing is that you gain less money on day N+100 vs day N, but it does not mean you lose money or stop gaining it. | | |
| ▲ | echoangle a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > First of all, because not everyone starts with inherited wealth. So how are you going to build the supermarket? > Also because ideally running a supermarket should give you more money even in a deflationary world. If it needs to give you more money than just saving the investment (which it should, you need to be rewarded for the risk or you would just save the money), obviously the profit margin has to be higher than it currently is, which would increase prices. | |
| ▲ | skulk a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > First of all, because not everyone starts with inherited wealth. So then you need an investment; you're going to have to return a multiple of the deflation rate since the risk of your supermarket shutting down is probably higher than the currency changing course. | |
| ▲ | MisterMunchkin a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But a deflationary system rewards inherited wealth. It's a pyramid scheme where the person at the top splits their big piles up into smaller piles, selling them to newer people, who then sell their smaller piles to newer people... So you'd be working for 0.000000000000000001 coins per day at the amazon warehouse, while Bezos has 500000 coins because he was born with them. There would never be a way for you to get 500000 coins, because there are only 20m coins in existence. | | |
| ▲ | osigurdson 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | The easiest thing for people to do in that situation is just create another Bitcoin. The person that has the 500K original Bitcoin is free to trade with themselves. This is why Bitcoin is much more of a social network than an algorithm. |
| |
| ▲ | thesuitonym a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But if sitting on a pile of cash provides returns, eventually all money will accumulate into the hands of a few ultra wealthy individuals. (Hmm...) | |
| ▲ | shkkmo a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Also because ideally running a supermarket should give you more money even in a deflationary world. Running a super market involves owning physical goods for some period of time. With deflation, the price you can sell those goods for drops while you are holding them. In fact most economic activity involves paying for inputs (labor, materials, etc) and then later getting paid for your outputs. Deflation directly impacts profitability and can cause losses. Since deflation causes demand to drop as economic actors wisely choose to start hoarding currency and buying less, this causes a feedback loop where deflation can spiral. Similarly, inflation causes demand to increase since holding currency is unwise and it is better to spend or invest that currency than hold onto it. These two patterns mean that the neutral state (no inflation or deflation) is unstable as any deviation above or below starts a feedback loop until things fall apart. This is the boom and bust economic cycle that modern monetary management is supposed to ameliorate. Given that you want economic growth, the best solution is to try to stabilize around a small fixed amount of inflation. Arguing for the end of inflation is arguing for the end of economic growth. | | |
| ▲ | dcow a day ago | parent [-] | | My family needs food though. Perhaps a supermarket is a poor example. I think people might purchase fewer luxury goods in a deflationary world which TBH I'm not sure is a bad thing. To put it another way, the model you're presenting reads well in an economics textbook and I'm sure is exactly how we justify our MMT social policy but it doesn't fully account for actual human behavior. I'll buy necessities (house/food/water/electric/communication) even in a deflationary economy. When was the last time you went to the grocery store and thought "I better buy this milk today because my money will have less spending power tomorrow"? | | |
| ▲ | qlte 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | An economy driven only by spending on bare essentials would be worse than Great Depression level malaise and stagnation. Where are you imagining growth would come from? |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | tshaddox a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surely most of the people putting their money under the mattress would still need to use a little of that money to buy food. | |
| ▲ | _s_a_m_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yep, exactly why Bitcoin people dont understand their own system. |
| |
| ▲ | FeepingCreature a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The point of money is not to reward delayed gratification. The point of money is to efficiently tabulate human preferences, and deflation directly counteracts this by introducing potentially unbounded latency at every step. That's why it destroys economies, as it has throughout history. | | |
| ▲ | benenrjdnz a day ago | parent [-] | | Can you provide an example of deflation destroying an economy in history?
There are many more examples of inflation destroying economies. | | |
| ▲ | gwbas1c a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The problems with using physical gold as currency are very well known. When population would increase, or when someone would hoard it, it would cause deflation. Likewise, when a new deposit of gold was found, it would cause inflation. This is, in part, why there were expeditions to find gold. | |
| ▲ | Roark66 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Wasn't the great crisis in first half of 20th century caused by deflation? | |
| ▲ | FeepingCreature a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Japan in living memory, I believe? I'm not a history buff. Google should have many examples. | | |
| ▲ | applfanboysbgon a day ago | parent [-] | | The Japanese economy is not, in any sense, destroyed. It doesn't get the infinite exponential growth unhinged economists want, but life on the ground is stable, wealth inequality is low, cost of living is low, average quality of life is very high. It is the perfect counterexample to the doctrine of chasing line go up. | | |
| |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | tekla a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you kidding me? Have you heard of a tiny event called the Great Depression? The Japanese Lost Decade? Greece Debt Crisis? | | |
| ▲ | jcbrand a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Those are credit bubbles bursting, not the result of hard money. | | |
| ▲ | tekla a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This is a almost entirely oversimplified take on the Great Depression to the point of meaninglessness For a decade before Black Thursday,there had been many things that were signs that the economy was having trouble even if the "Roaring Twenties" made it seem like everything was fine. IMO the largest issue was that American farm sector was teetering on the edge because of the dramatic drop in crop prices. This deflation screwed over farmers who mechanized with lots of debt, which because of said deflation, became impossible to pay off. The fed also implemented rate hikes to curb speculation right before 1929 which froze up credit contributing to deflation The problem of the Great Depression was NOT the stock market crash, it arguably wasn't even the real start, just the most "spectacular" one. The problem was that with the entire economy deflating, it caused a massive downward spiral that the Fed did not really have the tools to fix, because of Gold Standard and lack of legal authorization. This was why the Govt went to extreme lengths to try and figure out how to raise prices, which is why you get programs to pay farmers to NOT grow food, and mass killings of pigs and cows and other farm animals, even as the farmers who raised those lifestock went hungry. So no, speculation was not the problem, it just sparked the key issue of the fact that the economy was deflation uncontrolled, but was just hidden. | | |
| ▲ | opo a day ago | parent [-] | | This is a complex topic and I think you have done a good job of summarizing the main issues. To add a little context: >...that the Fed did not really have the tools to fix, because of Gold Standard and lack of legal authorization. This was just bad policy by the Fed. The Fed had the legal authority to be the lender of last resort and could have prevented the bank failures. Many explanations have been given over the years as to why the Fed didn't provide liquidity. Because the Fed failed to supply emergency liquidity, the U.S. money supply plummeted by nearly 30% over the next couple of years, which essentially turned what likely would have been a recession into the Great Depression. This is not to say the gold standard was not a problem. During the 1930's, leaving the gold standard was one of the few good moves done to help the economy by the federal government. |
| |
| ▲ | FeepingCreature a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, this often happens in pairs: the overcorrection after excessive credit results in a deflationary money market, destroying any chance at recovery. |
| |
| ▲ | oblio a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | pjc50 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Losing purchasing power on your money is a bug. The idea that you can put away an amount of money under your bed that buys 1,000 loaves of bread or one GPU, leave it there for decades, and then have it buy exactly the same number of loaves of bread or GPUs is a fantasy. You can hold onto the shiny rock but you cannot stop the world rotating around you and changing all its relative prices. > For most of human history the money was stable Achieved by a combination of restrictions on trade, price stability laws, occasional crippling shortages, and quietly shaving bits off old coins. A much poorer world. | | |
| ▲ | jcbrand a day ago | parent [-] | | Except that this is literally what Gold does. The ratio of one ounce of gold to one productive beef cow has held for a hundred years, and plausibly for around 5,000 years. A single ounce of gold could purchase a quality tunic, sandals, and belt in Ancient Rome and still buys a fine tailored suit in the modern era. https://findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-purchasing-power-wha... | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 a day ago | parent [-] | | This would be more convincing if it wasn't from a site trying to sell me gold. Do people really believe that the mechanization of clothing production in the industrial era has made no difference to "real" prices? (Rome definitely had inflation crises!) |
|
| |
| ▲ | gloosx a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think deflation-based economy could produce some interesting capital-allocation environemnt. Investment offering a 2% real return becomes unattractive if cash itself earns 2% real purchasing-power yearly. You could argue this raises the hurdle rate for investment and eliminates low-quality projects. And the counterargument is exactly the same: it raises the hurdle rate for investment and therefore some potentially good projects would never receive funding. And thats probably where the intellectually interesting argument really lives, rather than in inflation good deflation bad | |
| ▲ | AIiscoming a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The right thing would be to have 0 change in the value of money as long as the right amount of money exists. The right maount of money is the amount of money we as normal humans need to work with (buying and selling stuff). Inflation and deflation are results of too much money or too little money in comparision to the production capability of a society. If i save today for my retirement and money gets less valuable when i'm retired, i have to give more 'saved' capacity back to get the real capacity (people taking care of me) and if i have more value, the others have to do more for me. Controlling this is 'work' from experts and is not solved by bitcoin btw. | | |
| ▲ | donavanm a day ago | parent [-] | | The normal term would be “velocity” of money, btw. Its a key consideration in addition to total supply whenever you need to evaluate inflation or manias. |
| |
| ▲ | abenga a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why does everyone assume that we're the ones keeping money under the mattress, not the ones who would have been paid by money otherwise not spent? All transactions have two sides, no? | |
| ▲ | SR2Z a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Deflation is a good thing, it rewards delayed gratification. "Delayed gratification" is also provided by investments producing returns. An economy with lots of investors will outperform one where people stuff their cash into their mattress, and deflation makes it very hard for potential investments to beat that strategy. > For most of human history the money was stable. [citation needed] The Spanish empire was driven to collapse by hyperinflation. Even in the US, there were financial collapses in the 19th and 18th century. Bank runs have been a thing for as long as banks have: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_run Your premise is based on faulty assumptions. The existence of credit itself is what causes monetary instability, and without credit the world would look very different. | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > The existence of credit itself is what causes monetary instability, and without credit the world would look very different. Indeed. Credit is money; ultimately anyone can expand the money supply with an IOU. | | |
| ▲ | benenrjdnz a day ago | parent [-] | | Money is destroyed when a loan is paid back. Private credit does not expand the monetary supply permanently. Only the state can increase the money supply. | | |
| ▲ | donavanm a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Your understanding of monetary theory is somewhere between 110 and 5,000 years off. Furness had a pretty cogent explanation of a monetary system without central authority or functional currency about 100 years ago with the Yap. They even managed to have bouts of inflation without the concept of a bank or state. | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are neglecting interest paid. It doesn't matter who issues the credit - the Medici family or the US Federal Reserve. |
|
| |
| ▲ | fizzbuzzbarbazz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | credit does provide a kind of flexibility that is sometimes needed, though. However, predatory lending, and the endless stacking of recursive loans, and government money printers are a massive stability issue that we're running into globally, and have (as you say) run into multiple times, historically. My thought on this would be a dynamicaly stable currency. estimate debt and transaction activity, and the more debt and more liquid activity there is, the more deflationary currency should be. the less debt there is, and the less of a percentage of the money is actually in-use, the more inflationary the currency should be. this, though, is fairly off-the-cuff. |
| |
| ▲ | dfgknionio a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you have a brilliant technical solution that requires throwing out all conventional economics, you don't have a brilliant technical solution. Bitcoin is rotten to its core and every excuse you make for it proves the point. >For most of human history the money was stable. Absolutely ridiculous. People have been counterfeiting and debasing money for as long as there has been money. | |
| ▲ | manwe150 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That only makes sense if money is a durable good destroyed by use. But money is improved by use and lost when put under a mattress. In economics terms, MV=PQ, and your proposal sets V low, which harms Q (goods available for sale) | | |
| ▲ | eru a day ago | parent | next [-] | | No, no. The issuer of your money is really, really happy when you don't use the money. Because that means they can issue more money, without causing inflation to spike. | |
| ▲ | fizzbuzzbarbazz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | ..and, you think that covers both individual and collective good? ..balance in all things. Neither being completely stingy, individually, nor being excessively spendy will benefit us, individually or collectively. ..but there are times for either. I wonder if there's a way to quantify that and put a variable on the conditions, and have an inflationary/deflationary currencynthat is dynamically stable depending on conditions. ..i mean, individually, most people will eventually spend, if they have much saved and it benefits them to do so. but occasionally, we do need a kick in the pants. whenever the economynis in gridlock, that's the time for inflation. ..but when people are spending excessively, it's a time for deflation, which discourages taking on debt, and pushes the economy towards real wealth. rewarding long-term thinkers is valuable, and has a very broad effect on society. |
| |
| ▲ | strogonoff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Historically, as far as I am aware, there was never a situation when deflation coincided with good things happening. A healthy amount of inflation keeps the economy going. | | |
| ▲ | ciupicri a day ago | parent [-] | | That's like saying stray dogs keep you in shape / running … because you don't want to be bitten. | | |
| ▲ | strogonoff a day ago | parent | next [-] | | This can be said about many conflicts between the individual and society, though. In many ways we are prevented from just taking what we want and “keep us in shape” because if everyone did the same it would be a problem. | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, cardio is Rule #1 of the zombie apocalypse in Zombieland. |
|
| |
| ▲ | donavanm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Hahahaha, oh my. You think the world was some idyll halcyon pre bretton woods? My man Enmentrna is going to come back and declare a jubilee for your great revelation. When has any historic monetary system been “stable” for an appreciable amount of time. Debasement is a very literal ancient word and problem. Even your straw man 20th century cut off is hilarious where you just kind of forget about 1873? Or maybe that decade is your shining example of the benefits of deflation. So much joy and global prosperity the peasants just forgot how to eat. Its cool, Bismarks destruction of the bimetallic system really helped usher in that age of stabikity from the international gold standards. | |
| ▲ | IAmBroom a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > For most of human history the money was stable. Wildly inaccurate, thanks to forgery and coin shaving - sometimes even governments officially reduced the silver or gold content to make more money out of their coin reserves. Even when proto-banks began issuing letters of credit, the quasi-fiat letters were subject to loss of confidence. However, the availability and quasi-fungibility of other silver/gold currencies meant that if you didn't trust Edward's penny, you could use a Dutch penning instead. That provided an alternate path to dampen inflation, as long as the dominant currency was coinage. But it was equally hard to buy a pig or a new suit with silver pennies by the 20th century. Bank notes, even when theoretically backed by exchange for their value in precious metals (the Gold Standard), were even easier to forge, and suffered from "loss of faith" inflation (runs on banks meaning they couldn't practically be exchanged for 14 pounds of silver pennies). |
| |
| ▲ | PowerElectronix a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I like the alternative even less, as it incentivises spending more than you would and taking on debt you don't really need. | | |
| ▲ | velcrovan a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, countries have experienced moderate inflation and moderate deflation, ask the ones who lived through both which one they preferred. | | |
| ▲ | eru a day ago | parent [-] | | Moderate deflation is fine, it's good even. But only as long as nominal GDP stays stable. See the so called 'Long Depression' in the 19th century. Which was only a depression of the price level, everything else did well. For a more sectoral example, see how computer hardware used to get cheaper and cheaper all the time, but total spending on hardware went up. | | |
| |
| ▲ | rerdavies a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > taking on debt you don't really need. How does that work? When inflation goes to 18%, borrowing rates go to 23%. |
| |
| ▲ | osigurdson 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Bitcoin is more like an asset than a currency. Unless a country makes Bitcoin its only currency it doesn't really matter that it is deflationary. | |
| ▲ | andrewla a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The idea that deflation is built into Bitcoin is exactly equivalent to saying "the real value of bitcoin will always increase" which is an absurd premise. Bitcoin is deflationary only in a hybrid Keynsian - Austrian worldview. In the Keynsian worldview it cannot by definition be deflationary because that would mean that the value is always increasing which is just kind of a mad thing to believe. In the Austrian worldview it is not deflationary because the amount of Bitcoin is always increasing by design. Only if you accept the Austrian framing of "deflation is when you decrease the money supply" together with the Keynsian framing of "money supply is measured in real terms not nominal" do you arrive at the idea that it could be deflationary, and there are exactly zero economists who believe both of these things. | |
| ▲ | FeepingCreature a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I suspect it was a deliberate strategy to create scarcity, allowing the original creators to massively cash out. If you make an inflationary distributed currency, it may work better but it's a bit harder to get rich on it. | |
| ▲ | nickez a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The other option is to make everyone gamblers, either speculate on properties or stocks. Pick your poison. | |
| ▲ | eru a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | During much of the industrial revolution, gold also rose in real price. But people still did business in gold standard countries. (Hint: the gold might be under a mattress or in a vault, but you can still an almost arbitrary amount of gold denominated debts and loans and deposits.) | |
| ▲ | chabska a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is zero evidence that deflation has any effect on spending. At the micro level, the change in price is too small for every day purchases. Would you starve yourself for one day because the pizza will be one cent cheaper tomorrow? At the macro level, every interest rate will be adjusted based on the base inflation/deflation rate, so the net effect is zero. Banks will offer a higher profit rate for their savings account to entice people to deposit their money in the bank instead of their mattress. | |
| ▲ | snapcaster a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not silly, it harnesses some of the mechanics behind ponzi schemes to encourage viral spread. Early entrants are incentivized to evangelize it to newer ones |
|