| ▲ | baxtr 5 hours ago |
| Didn’t mind-altering drugs like alcohol play a key role in the rise of any civilization? |
|
| ▲ | adzm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Alcohol and fermentation have a much different role with food safety and preservation though; the inebriation is just a pleasant side effect for some (and a curse for others) |
| |
| ▲ | sophacles 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Beer may have lead to the domestication of cereal grains. This is not my theory, here's an article about it: https://nautil.us/beer-domesticated-man-234697 Specifically, we have evidence of beer older than we have evidence of cereal domestication. There is evidence that beer's side effects were considered important for social and religious gatherings (as they are today as well). People wanted to make more beer and so figured out how to plant it. The process to make bread is actually a lot more involved than to make beer and porridge... and porridge just doesn't make as much sense as a motivating factor for domestication when the grains ripen at the same time as many many other easier and tastier foods are also ready in the natural environment. Arguably, the domestication of grain and invention of agriculture played a role in the rise of many civilizations. There's no reason to think that humans 10k years ago didn't enjoy getting buzzed, just like humans today do. |
|
|
| ▲ | dominotw 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| yes coffee is reason behind our current civilization |
| |
| ▲ | cyberpunk 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I can't quit it. When I do, after about 2 weeks I completely lose the ability to be a good worker bee and sit in my open plan office,and hide my contempt for the absolute rank ineptitude of almost everyone else there. Load me up with the happy brown juice and I can pretty much make it through. I'm not convinced this is sustainable tbh. | | |
| ▲ | shagie 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > ... I completely lose the ability to be a good worker bee ... Caffeine in Floral Nectar Enhances a Pollinator's Memory of Reward - https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1228806 > Caffeine improves memory in humans, millions of whom find that their daily dose enhances clarity, focus, and alertness. The human relationship with caffeine is relatively recent, however, and thus its impact on our brains is likely a by-product of its true ecological role. Caffeine occurs naturally in the floral nectar of Coffea and Citrus plants. Wright et al. (p. 1202; see the Perspective by Chittka and Peng) found that caffeine presented at naturalistic levels significantly improved the ability of bees to remember and locate a learned floral scent and potentiated the responses of neurons involved in olfactory learning and memory. PBS Eons Why Does Caffeine Exist? (5:13 for the bit on bees) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzshAqowsyI > In experiments on bees, researchers have found that once they've had a sip of caffeine-laced nectar, it boosts their memory, makes them preferentially revisit the plants, and even helps them pollinate faster and more efficiently. So, for plants, caffeine is a multi-purpose molecule with a lot of adaptive benefits. But, for us, it has one main benefit: it gets us through Monday morning. ... | |
| ▲ | EMIRELADERO 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Chesterton called it, quite fittingly, "The Puritan's opium". |
| |
| ▲ | TimTheTinker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | And nicotine, don't forget that. Smokers built the modern world (and then developed lung cancer for their troubles). |
|
|
| ▲ | physicalecon 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [dead] |
|
| ▲ | LoganDark 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Alcohol is a poison, not a drug, but I also think so. I honestly wish mind-altering drugs were more accessible sometimes, mostly because of safety. Millions are killed by adulterants in their street drugs. |
| |
| ▲ | nickff 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As the saying goes: “the dose makes the poison”. Many (perhaps most) drugs cause harm at the wrong dosage. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Many (perhaps most) drugs cause harm at the wrong dosage. Not only drugs, almost everything is bad at the wrong dosage. Case in point: water. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Tonicity matters too. Deionized water will suck the ions right out of you. All the way to your death if you're so determined. |
| |
| ▲ | quchen 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Depending on your definition of poison of course, but at least for LSD and magic mushrooms, all that's known is a lower bound for their biological toxicity. For LSD IIRC it's somewhere in the 30mg (!) range, for mushrooms it's more than can comfortably fit a stomach. I'm afraid I don't have sources handy though. That said, the state of mind must be so wild that "is it poisonous in this specific/usual sense" is probably not the right thing to discuss. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark an hour ago | parent [-] | | > That said, the state of mind must be so wild that "is it poisonous in this specific/usual sense" is probably not the right thing to discuss. I've struggled to tell the difference between doses of LSD that exceed 100µg. Maybe I just take it too frequently to make much of a difference. It's also possible that it only increases duration, but not intensity. |
| |
| ▲ | mannanj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So for mold, low enough doses aren't poison? Can't you just say this about anything. If you have poison in a low enough dose it's not poison. So it means jsut about nothing to say alcohol isn't poisonous because you can have a small dose of it. | | |
| ▲ | nickff an hour ago | parent [-] | | Fentanyl is actually much more toxic than the mycotoxins produced by mold (which I'm guessing is what you're referring to), and yet fentanyl is generally recognized to be a useful drug because of its therapeutic effects. If something has no possible therapeutic, recreational, nutritional, or culinary effect, while being toxic, it might be fair to characterize it as a 'pure poison'. |
|
| |
| ▲ | talon8635 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Poison is a function of dosage. Water is a poison in a high enough dose. What’s you’re arguments it’s not a drug? | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs, and I'd say the indiscriminate action and lack of any particular affinity is what makes it a poison as opposed to a drug. It is also generally assumed that alcohol is not exactly in the same category as drugs. ("drugs or alcohol" etc.) | | |
| ▲ | archonis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's purely because it's usage is accepted nearly as a default, and drug in common usage is most often a pejorative term if it doesn't refer to a medicinal context. Most people who use drug as a pejorative term also wouldn't use it to describe caffeine. | |
| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Alcohol requires an astronomical intake compared to most drugs That's primarily because it's most commonly diluted 90%. Spirits (or everclear) have much lower intake required. | | |
| ▲ | LoganDark an hour ago | parent [-] | | I did not say alcoholic beverages, I said alcohol. Even pure ethanol still requires a far higher dosage than most drugs. |
| |
| ▲ | aeonik 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | But the "Active dose" to "lethal dose" ratio, aka "therapeutic index" of alcohol is pretty bad. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Don't you mean that it's quite good? It's easily more than an order of magnitude for many people (not sure about chronic alcoholics with high tolerance). How many medications can you 5x your dose and not have some risk of ending up in the hospital? | | |
| ▲ | aeonik 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Heroin (IV) ~6x GHB ~8x Ethanol ~10x Methamphetamine ~10x DXM ~10x Cocaine ~15x MDMA ~16x Codeine ~20x Methadone ~20x Mescaline ~24x Flunitrazepam ~30x Ketamine ~40x Phenobarbital ~50x Nitrous oxide ~150x LSD ~1000x Cannabis/THC ~1000x or greater Citation:
Gable RS. Comparison of acute lethal toxicity of commonly abused psychoactive substances. Addiction. 2004;99(6):686–696. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.2004.00744.x |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | cobbzilla 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s much more of a poison to some of our primate relatives. iirc the genes that facilitate alcohol metabolism evolved in great apes millions of years before homo sapiens, and we inherited them; we’ve been boozing long before we were even human. | |
| ▲ | asphodele 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | if alcohol can damage your short term memory, Imagine what effect alcohol has |
|