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bertonvv 9 hours ago

I've been wondering whether AI really is improving rapidly at open problems or we're being fooled.

- OpenAI invites researchers to use their models, in fact giving at least 100,000 researchers free access[1], but there are also those that pay

- Internal OpenAI models are reportedly solving open problems at a surprisingly fast rate[2]

- But researchers will typically work on open problems. A researcher who is using Codex to make progress on open problems will be feeding it fresh training data on precisely the problems the internal models are evaluated on.

- So while it looks like the new models are suddenly solving lots of open problems, they could be significantly piggybacking on human progress, with models "inspired" by the work of researchers from all around the world?

This theory predicts that there'll be many more researchers coming forward just like TFA, as sOpenAI announces more solutions. It doesn't assume all of AI progress is a mirage, just that there's plagiarism.

[1]: https://openai.com/index/chatgpt-for-academic-researchers/

[2]: https://xcancel.com/OpenAI/status/2097374643518640382#m

JeremyNT 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I've been wondering whether AI really is improving rapidly at open problems or we're being fooled.

I think your suspicions are warranted and your explanation seems plausible.

If better training data is the reason here, it would still be a case of the models doing something that is in and of itself super useful! The models really can take that data and distill it into solutions for similar problems faster than humans can. This is great!

But there's so much vested interest in the AI companies to be opaque about all this, to hype up their models and avoid giving credit to people whose data made everything possible, that they would never tell us this fact if it were true.

I feel like so much of the AI hype cycle is like this. The models develop extremely useful capabilities, but it's hard to understand what they really are through the hype. The lies and obfuscation by their owners who have vested interests in capturing the value they provide makes it impossible to take anything they say at face value.

YeGoblynQueenne 3 hours ago | parent [-]

>> If better training data is the reason here, it would still be a case of the models doing something that is in and of itself super useful! The models really can take that data and distill it into solutions for similar problems faster than humans can. This is great!

It's perhaps great in the short term although it's not very clear who it's great for. I'm not sure mathematicians find it all so great, I mean.

In the long term, if this contrives to destroy the tradition of human mathematics the whole endeavour is self-defeating. In time, there will be nobody left with the knowledge and skills to produce mathematics to train AI to do mathematics.

And then we'll be left with no mathematics at all: we'll have no human mathematicians and no AI that can do mathematics, either.

wiei 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’d argue the invitation of researchers was incredibly strategic.

Sam Altman knows what he’s doing. He will happily screw these folks to one-up his competition.

mikgp 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A mental model I was thinking about was - I remember when Travis Kalanick was talking about using the chatbot to discuss “vibe physics-ing” on the all-in podcast.

And like - I think there’s a presumption you could make that AI models could overfit to asymptote towards just the capabilities and knowledge we currently have.

And that would be amazing! And crazy useful. And there are probably a whole world of complex problems that remain unsolved because they’re adjacent to knowledge we have but they haven’t been invested in.

But can a human reliably tell the difference between “can do 99.999% of the things we currently know how to do which includes a small subset of things we didn’t know we had the capacity to do” and “super intelligent math and science research pushing the frontier of what we know”

A physicist that knows all the things we currently know in excruciating detail feels like it should be able to make the leap beyond the frontier.

But since these are computer models it might just be that it can ride that line extraordinarily well while the line remains firm.

bwfan123 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

there are also attempts to crowdsource human research directions - like the caltech mathathon challenge : https://mathathonchallenge.com these would help models on the same problems at the expense of the researchers. basically, math researchers are the reverse centaurs but they dont realize it.

GPerson 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There is a very active open letter of over 1000 signatures from mathematicians in protest of this event. This event is targeting undergraduates. It previously suggested that math researchers already have no place in mathematics, and presents a limited and heavily distorted view of what mathematics research is.

andrepd 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm an AI skeptic, but I don't see how this squares with what the organisers of the event actually say. "It previously suggested that math researchers already have no place in mathematics"? I don't see this.

GPerson 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The website previously said, “What is the role of a mathematician when AI can solve conjectures faster?” but they have removed it, possibly as a result of the letter since it happened after.

GPerson 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Also I want to mention that the letter is not about AI skepticism, in any direct way at least.

YeGoblynQueenne 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> Internal OpenAI models are reportedly solving open problems at a surprisingly fast rate[2]

Maybe I'm failing to read that graph properly but the y axis says "pass rate" and it only goes up to 0.5. That would mean every single problem is at most half-solved.

I don't know what that means though. What is "0.5 pass rate" in the context of "open math problems" (as in the graph title)?

red75prime 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I guess it's a fraction of problems on which a model produces a LEAN proof or a counterexample.

YeGoblynQueenne 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Wouldn't they just list the number of problems solved then?

dekhn an hour ago | parent [-]

rates beat counts almost always.

agumonkey 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems easy to picture high stakes startup cutting corners to justify their fame.

Eddy_Viscosity2 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> they could be significantly piggybacking on human progress,

This is AI in a nutshell, its a plagiarism machine. An abstraction layer between vast amounts of stolen human-generated data that filters out the liabilities and accountability for that original theft. Its an IP laundering system.

robocat 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's such an unquantifiable accusation.

Plus it is an unfair standard since so many scientists in the past have been caught unethically using the work of others without attribution (and so many more have been accused).

In history we also repeatedly see the phenomenon of multiple discovery or simultaneous invention. If that happens to AI because the topic is pregnant, would you call it "plagiarism" just to disparage AI? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_discovery

wiei 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That’s one perspective.

I just view it as a thing that can brute force and produce outputs - that it has no way of ‘knowing’ - but doesn’t need to since it’s just running off of probability.

No human can compete in that contest. But no llm can compete in the contest of ‘understanding’ and application in the real world - which is where 99% of the value is.

I’m very pro AI long term btw but I’m not blinded.

foogazi 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But it’s not brute force if it’s looking over everyone’s shoulder

Brute force would have been solving Navier-Stokes in 88 hours after plagiarizing all known 20th century math

When it needs to snoop live on what the actual mathematicians are working on that’s something else

throwawayqqq11 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dont forget the holisitic validators/tools in the process. Probabilistics alone likely will not get you here. These rules are human made and without it, frontier models would not be able to compete, likely.

AnimalMuppet 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

AI needs humans to encode ideas in words. It needs those ideas to span the space of possibilities of, say, Navier Stokes. Then AI can be, as you say, a terrifyingly effective way to search that space.

But when the building-block ideas are still being formed, I'm not sure that AI is good at forming them.

mannanj 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It tells me that AI companies are just another mechanism to extract and extort value from the masses for the rich.

Just another rich man’s trick

Perhaps the last one before they destroy that world and try to hide away as people forget and history is rewritten again. I don’t think they’ll succeed this time.

dgellow 4 hours ago | parent [-]

AI providers are pretty much the end boss of rent seeking, that’s for sure

glitchc 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The pudding is in the proof. The field is mathematics, the proof can be rigorously verified. If there is a flaw, OpenAI is out to lunch. If the proof is valid, OpenAI has produced something new.

amelius 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Did you read what they said? The question is now if OAI produced something new or just stole the researchers' good ideas.

glitchc 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You seem to be unfamiliar about how research works. It's common to make an incremental advancement while citing prior work. The vast majority of papers out there fall into this bucket. Did the AI make incremental progress? Yes. Did it cite prior art? After some nudging, yes.

It seems to me the academics are upset that AI scooped them. But scooping is a time-honored tradition between researchers. First to print and all that. In a nutshell, they are upset that they lost out on a publication.

I will also point out for those unaware that any mathematics that is produced is automatically part of the public domain and can be used freely in derivative works. It is not a protected intellectual class like other works of art.

jsLavaGoat 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Name one discovery ever that didn't depend on someone else's work.

amelius 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Most discoveries did not happen by someone looking in someone else's notebooks without them knowing.