There is, it's called debit cards, but Stripe et al. "simplified" pricing by charging a percentage regardless of card type instead of the traditional interchange-plus pricing. Merchant banks "used to" make money by tacking on fixed fees, i.e. a set-up fee, terminal fee, monthly fee, etc, but then Stripe came along and provided (1) a better dev experience, (2) better onboarding, and (3) simplified pricing.

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numpad0 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Debit cards still go through the same credit card infrastructure. The practical difference at this point is whether the card company backend defer payment until collection date for the benefit of customers, or don't wait and just call APIs on the spot. There's a whole "internet" of credit card infra that lets you pay using those numbers on the card like they are phone numbers.

Stripe don't do handle their own payment, they just wrap someone else's API, and pay them in percentages and dollars per API calls(idk about the ones behind Stripe, but I think I saw somewhere that those middlemen often charge both? Egregious, but they're literally old boys money men and they have lots of leverages against you).

What are truly different to credit/debit card systems are things like PayPal, Apple/Google and such gift cards with scratch areas, and Chinese QR payment apps. Those are the ones that don't (always) go through the CC ecosystem.

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karlosvomacka 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For US readers - in my country in europe I'd say that 95% of people have only debit card, not credit card. it's very not common to have a credit card here. Card payments are extremely common, but everyone uses debit card.

	▲	avianlyric an hour ago \| parent [-]
		The EU caps all card interchange fees at 0.3% for credit cards and 0.2% for debit, which is an order of magnitude lower than some of the fees in the US. That’s why you don’t see the same kinds of credit card deals in the EU compared to the US.

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losvedir an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Debit cards aren't that, in practice, because as you say they typically get the same 3% fee whenever I've asked. Toast and other point of sale networks just charge it based on the network and not the card type.

But even so, I still prefer the credit card instrument, used as a "charge card". For those that don't know, a "charge card" is common with businesses and is expected to be paid off every month. But it helps with managing your cashflow - e.g. you can keep your money in a savings account all month and make one transaction at the end - and it keeps your actual money from being at risk of fraud.

Most Europeans seem confused with how Americans use credit cards for everything, but about half of us use them as charge cards, paying them off every month.

That is a benefit, so I can see paying a small percentage for it, but I don't think that benefit alone justifies the 3-5% of a transaction that credit cards charge now.

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LeBit an hour ago | parent | next [-]

As a Canadian , I thought that was the expected de facto way of using credit cards: you pay everything with it so you get rewards (ie money) at the end of the year as a function of how much you used the card during the year. At the end of the month, you pay whatever the outstanding balance is, otherwise you pay high interests.

	▲	zaphirplane 28 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		There are fees thou and i cant imagine they are losing out as a business

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eastbayjake an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Debit cards are not subject to surcharging, and any merchant doing so is violating Visa/Mastercard regulations. (And possibly state law in several places -- Colorado where I live caps surcharge at the lesser of 2% or the cost of payment processing.)

	▲	ecommerceguy 21 minutes ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Correct, Toast specifically will not allow it under any circumstance. Debit cards issued by smaller community banks or credit unions are exempt from the cap and carry higher interchange rates (often 1.0%–1.65% + $0.10). All merchants should either do Surcharging or Cash Discount.
	▲	cmurf 29 minutes ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		It’s 2% or actual cost for credit cards. Under subparagraph f)A seller or lessor shall not impose a surcharge if a customer elects to pay for goods or services by Check, cash, debit card, processing as a debit payment, or gift card. eCheck is considered a check. https://colorado.public.law/statutes/crs_5-2-212
	▲	4lx87 44 minutes ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Prices reflect the credit card merchant fees, even if there's no separate surcharge. People pay higher prices and anyone who doesn't use a credit card to recoup some in "rewards" is effectively getting taxed.

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4lx87 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

You get charged higher prices and then have to use a credit card to recoup the loss, so that rent-seeking monopolists can make money. And Americans are also seemingly baffled by the idea of regulating this away, as if other countries doing this don't exist. Credit cards are the USA epitomized.

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jimbob45 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You have to wait for the investigation to complete to receive compensation if you’re hit by fraud on a debit card. Credit cards don’t share that issue. If you’re poor or living paycheck-to-paycheck, debit cards are potentially a risk to your livelihood.

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seabre 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As someone who has been hit with fraud on a debit card and a credit card, the process to recover money from fraud on a credit card is so much easier and more hassle-free than a debit card.

The big difference is that with a debit card, it's your money that is hit by fraud. The debit card is basically just a proxy. You have to go file a police report. You have to hope the bank will give you the money back.

When the credit card gets hit, it's the credit card company's money and they will seemingly chase the fraud to the ends of the earth to recover it.

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thechao 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> The big difference is that with a debit card, it's your money that is hit by fraud.

I kind of disagree. I think what's happened is the bank would prefer you to believe that. Imagine I kept my money at the bank, and deposited $10000 with the teller. Immediately afterward a robber follows in and steals that $10000 from the teller. Does the bank say "oh no Mr. TheChao! A robber stole your $10000!". I mean, no? The bank got robbed. Just because the bank's digital security is more tied one-to-one to dollars and its easier for a robber to steal from "my till" doesn't mean it was me who was robbed. It's the bank's job to stop that.

	▲	Hardwired8976 9 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		Eh when you deposit money with a teller, it gets added to your account, which is in physical terms probably just a big storage and a database who has how much. But in the case of debit card, the card ties the money to your account. It is actually that. It's as if someone would steal from a personal safe at the bank.

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avianlyric an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This depends heavily on the country you’re in. In the UK banks are required to refund you within a single business day if they don’t have any evidence that the customer isn’t trying to defraud the bank themselves.

They try to squirm out of that of course. But in general getting your money back isn’t too tricky even with a debit card.

	▲	seabre an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Oh yeah. I should definitely caveat: I am in the US. I think banks here are required to cap your loss to $50 USD if you report unauthorized fraud within two business days. But still, the onus is on you. Meanwhile, virtually all credit cards in the US offer $0 liability protection. Which means at most you pay nothing.

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abdullahkhalids an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The underlying problem is that the whole concept of cards is insane. Basically, you go around telling every shopkeeper the code for your safe, and ask them to take however much cash you owe them out of the safe.

Sane ways to organize payments:

- Merchant gives you a bill-id. You input it into your bank website - where you see the bill amount being charged. You accept, and bank pays merchant.

- You give merchant your card number (that's the only information - no expiry, no ccv, no name). A notification pops up on your bank website asking if you want to pay what the merchant is requesting. You accept.

- You go to your bank website and obtain a random number, either allowing a single transaction or a recurring transaction. You give the merchant the number. After merchant charges it, no other merchant can charge the same number.

	▲	KptMarchewa 36 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> You go to your bank website and obtain a random number, either allowing a single transaction or a recurring transaction. You give the merchant the number. After merchant charges it, no other merchant can charge the same number. That's basically how Blik works in Poland. With the exception being that the number is random 6 digits randomly generated when you open the app, that is active for ~2 minutes. So you don't deal with the issue of very long and error prone numbers to copy. Much better way to pay online. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik

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kevin_thibedeau 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've always had fraudulent debit charges automatically reverted. Typically the bank's fraud detection disables the card and you clear up the matter on the phone. Or they call you to verify if a suspicious charge outside your profile was actually yours. The banks aren't required to do this but they can choose to provide this level of service.

	▲	bijowo1676 an hour ago \| parent [-]
		the cc fraud (and fraud protection) is THE main selling point of Visa/MC credit cards. it is that different treatment of debit/cc fraud that pushes people towards high fee cc. it is cc fraud protection that justifies high cc processing fees. without cc fraud there is no need in visa/mc duopoly.

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ryall 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Weird take, credit card debt is much more of a risk to that demographic than debit cards ever will be

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milesskorpen 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Also debit cards run by smaller credit unions charge credit-card like fees (and then are used by fintechs to earn fees while making it harder to pass those fees on to end users).