| ▲ | The UN challenges five centuries of cartography(not-ship.com) |
| 65 points by speckx 13 hours ago | 99 comments |
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| ▲ | bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I feel like people are making more of a fuss about this then it is. The UNGA isn't a body that controls what maps its member states use. They can make the recommendation of course, but it has yet to be seen if anyone follows it. |
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| ▲ | exabrial 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, that's my thoughts as well. The answer is literally in the article: > Mercator useful for sailing This is the only correct answer, and everything else is unscientific nonsense. It hasn't been replaced because... it just hasn't. Mercator + knots + nautical miles is a system that is extremely useful for navigation. Since we aren't sailing ships around a whole lot anymore, a lot of teachers forget to mention the relationship between the three. I imagine that was more common knowledge back in the day. That being said, I do like the new proposed projection for how we use maps today. I think another useful tool would simply be overlay maps. | | |
| ▲ | edoceo 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why not just use KM? We should reduce the number of units of measure in 2026. |
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| ▲ | theanonymousone 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I came across AuthaGraph projection some time ago and got hooked to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AuthaGraph_projection A version of it including political borders my desktop wallpaper for a long time, until I decided to not change default wallpaper on my new devices anymore. |
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| ▲ | simonw 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I vibe-coded up an animated transition between Mercator and Equal Earth (using D3) the other day, if anyone's interested in that comparison: https://tools.simonwillison.net/equal-earth |
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| ▲ | mlaretallack 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Very cool, Its interesting to see what happens to Antarctica. | |
| ▲ | morepork 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People say Russia, Canada and Greenland look big in the Mercator projection, but what they miss is it makes Antarctica enormous, your app shows it nicely. So much so that many maps just cut off the bottom otherwise it looks a bit silly, but then the equator isn't in the middle. | | |
| ▲ | bmandale an hour ago | parent [-] | | The mercator projection has neither a top nor a bottom, it extends infinitely upwards and downwards. Hence all visualizations of it cut it off at some arbitrary point. Making antarctica humorously large does nothing besides make a point. |
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| ▲ | gumby 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Very nice! | |
| ▲ | MichaelRo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I stopped reading at "vibe-coded". | | |
| ▲ | imp0cat an hour ago | parent [-] | | It's kinda obvious when you see the username, isn't it? But still, it's not a red flag in this particular example. |
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| ▲ | alehlopeh 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Calling it Equal Earth was a bad move. The word “equal” has tons of baggage. Why not call it something less incendiary like Actual Earth or something? What ever happened to being pragmatic? |
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| ▲ | notpushkin 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It’s been called Equal Earth since 2018. The word “equal” here (likely?) refers to the fact it’s an equal-area projection, although it could be politically charged. |
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| ▲ | JdeBP 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I read the article thinking that it was not going to mention Dymaxion. Articles like this rarely do. The BBC has an article on the U.N. resolution (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly5r60v4mro), and it does not. And then right at the bottom it went and mentioned Dymaxion. Dymaxion is one of the few projections that actually shows Antarctica with something resembling its actual shape. Interestingly, to counter the people who say that the best thing to learn from is an actual globe, a couple of children's globes of the world that I had as a child had large metal caps around the axle that obscured most of Antarctica. Any decent atlas uses a variety of projections, of course. The tatty, second-hand, older-than-I-am atlas that I had at school was already on to Interrupted Mollweide's Homolographic by page 3. (-: |
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| ▲ | jbaber 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | That's why I got my kids $1 inflatable globes. You can see the poles just fine. | |
| ▲ | alterom 35 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Interestingly, to counter the people who say that the best thing to learn from is an actual globe, a couple of children's globes of the world that I had as a child had large metal caps around the axle that obscured most of Antarctica. "I had toy globes which, unlike actual globes, covered up significant chunks of Earth, so actual globes are bad" Solid logic, mate. | |
| ▲ | hn993302 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Even computer maps at the time like Google Earth had distortion around the poles, as if they were pieced together in slices. So that combined with the globe caps are why I never really knew what they looked like as a kid. |
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| ▲ | xyzelement 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| As the article says, all protections have some distortions and it's just a matter of which ones you chose. It's totally reasonable and rational for the African association of cartographer to push for this change - it makes their continent look bigger. At the margin, their children can look at the map and feel more significant. On the flip side, this particular map makes Europe look smaller. So it means that at the margin, European children will look at the map and feel less significant. It doesn't shock me that the US voted against it. I am surprised that others voted for it, and diminished themselves. |
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| ▲ | politician 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'd love to hear from the folks that downvoted this carefully neutral observation. |
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| ▲ | samizdis 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For quite a few years, and because I don't have a globe, I've turned to MapFight [0] to get a good idea of size/area comparisons for countries, significant geographic features and for historical lands/empires. [0] https://www.mapfight.xyz/ |
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| ▲ | decimalenough 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's kind of funny how the colonial convenience of having the 0 longitude line pass through Greenwich, UK ends up making Africa the most prominent place on the world map, since the centerpoint (0,0) is just off the African coast. This was true with Mercator as well, but Equal Earth emphasizes just how huge the African continent actually is. |
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| ▲ | gumby 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | For a while, France had its own prime meridian with 0 degrees passing of course through Paris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_meridian | |
| ▲ | hn993302 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, the prime meridian selection is the actually colonial part of the Mercator map. It's not like they were trying to make Europe look big, but they were trying to make London central. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The prime meridian being the least skewed area of the equal earth and Robinson projections, with their bulgy nature, actually serves to make them both offer somewhat inconvenient depictions of places like Alaska and New Zealand and Japan. Mercator is far more globally evenhanded in that regard, being a cylindrical projection. |
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| ▲ | ButlerianJihad 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_meridians The Washington meridians are four meridians that were used as prime meridians in the United States which pass through Washington, D.C.
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| ▲ | somat 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | This is the source of my favorite border dispute. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Tahoe#Interstate_boundary... In summary there is a border dispute between California and Nevada, It was exacerbated by some surveying errors but the real problem appears to be the definitions of the sate borders, California was defined using one method(longitude west of Greenwich) and Nevada was defined using another method (longitude west of Washington) at the time it was thought these two methods were compatible but it later turned out they are not. Congress does not have the authority to change state borders so it is up to the states to reach an agreement. and they have not. So the dispute is still technically on going. Researching this also lead to the most hilarious passive aggressive thing I have seen in a constitution. "All territory lying West of and adjoining the boundary line herein prescribed, which the State of California may relinquish to the Territory or State of Nevada, shall thereupon be embraced within and constitute a part of this State." We really wanted that area east of the Sierra Nevada mountains, they would form a perfect natural boundary, but CA has already claimed it. If CA ever wants to give it up we want to make sure it is explicitly in the constitution to accept it. | |
| ▲ | decimalenough an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't give Trump any ideas. |
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| ▲ | kspacewalk2 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Robinson projection is a good enough, boring compromise, if the UN was interested in that. |
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| ▲ | tensor 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No one needs a compromise. The world (except the US) agreed to use this new map together. It's not a conflict. | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | UNGA votes are non binding symbolic grandstanding. This vote does not mean the world agreed to it. its more like the world agreed to think about it. Will countries actually change their map projections? That has yet to be seen. Maybe they will, maybe they won't That has yet to be seen. | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | To say that "the world agreed" on something based on a General Assembly resolution is an interesting claim, if rather bold. | |
| ▲ | mdp2021 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Somebody who does not represent anybody "agreed" - not us. | | |
| ▲ | tensor 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm Canadian. Canada represents me. They voted on this. That's how the world works. Sometimes my government is not the one I voted for and my interests are not represented, or sometimes my interests are not the majority in my country. That's life. No one is forcing you to use the new map, you can keep your old map. No one will arrest you for it. Enjoy! |
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| ▲ | sgc 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One can still note a poor decision based on its merits. An equal area projection map is obviously valuable. But it's practically asinine to pick a projection that distorts land features when there are several equal area projections that do not. Further, Ukraine had to abstain from this vote because they shoehorned in something ridiculous considering the official position of the UN members that Crimea is Ukraine [1], and Crimea is depicted as outside of Ukraine. I have no idea if there are other hidden yet important changes, since there is hardly any commentary apart from size and shape. [1] https://ukraine-war-analytics.com/history/international-reco... | |
| ▲ | nisegami 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Representing a 3D sphere-like surface on a 2d plane definitionally requires compromise. | |
| ▲ | jsLavaGoat 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "The world" is not represented by the UN General Assembly. Did you vote for your representative? | | |
| ▲ | raincole 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The UN does not dictate which map you or your government or your school or Google uses. | | |
| ▲ | jsLavaGoat an hour ago | parent [-] | | I didn’t say it did, I said the UN is not a democratic body. He said the world decided. What is your problem? |
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| ▲ | Muromec 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I didn't vote for a foreign minister of my country, but his job is to represent my country, including in UN. This is fine. |
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| ▲ | flexagoon 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Here's an image I made to show the difference between Robinson and Equal Earth: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Comparison_of_Equal_... Whichever you prefer, what matters is that we should all just stop using Mercator. | | |
| ▲ | WillAdams an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, we should use Mercator for its intended purpose (only), which is to accurately show/determine angles for navigation.... | |
| ▲ | mdp2021 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > what matters is that we should all just stop using Mercator Are you insane? Why should one? Is it because if you see a projection you are cognitively impacted? Well, get scholarized, and you will stop getting subconscious suggestions from unintended appearances. Meanwhile, we will prefer orthogonal axes projections for all the cases where they work well. By the way: in the territories I know, Mercator is just one of the projections used in texts and schools. | |
| ▲ | poncho_romero 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why? Mercator is useful and familiar to billions of people. |
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| ▲ | gumby 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | “Robinson projection” makes me think of Canadian fasteners. | |
| ▲ | polski-g 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That is the best one, no idea why its not standard. | |
| ▲ | mc32 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm partial to the Goode Homolosine projection, next is whatever NatGeo standardized on. Of course, the best is an actual globe --but decent sized ones are too expensive and the beach ball ones are just not very well made. | |
| ▲ | Apocryphon 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I could’ve sworn that Robinson had already replaced Mercator by the ‘90s, so I was surprised to see defenders of the latter. | |
| ▲ | MengerSponge 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | https://xkcd.com/977/ I have a Waterman on my wall :) | |
| ▲ | atoav 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why would the world feel the need to compromise when all UN countries, except for one agree on the projection. The solution is simply to ignore the minority, especially if it has a government that itself has always refused to compromise with others. | | |
| ▲ | kspacewalk2 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a GA resolution. Vanuatu gets the same vote as India. No actually consequential global decisions could ever be made this way, so it's no wonder it's mostly used for symbolic votes like this one. |
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| ▲ | rkagerer 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's great they want to find a projection that better represents the real geography, but at the end of the day you're still trying to unwrap a sphere onto a rectangle. Personally I feel the schools mentioned here would get better mileage out of buying (more) old fashioned globes, and encouraging the kids to learn geography that way. |
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| ▲ | scotty79 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Since we are moving away from print and towards screens, shouldn't we be just using actual globes? |
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| ▲ | snowwrestler 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes. Specially, touch enabled screens with dynamically rendered graphics. The Google Maps app on my iPhone at one point years ago switched to having a globe as its base, like Google Earth. It was great. Then Google switched it back to Mercator. But you can scroll infinitely to the left or right, so its base is actually now “Mercator rolled into a tube.” Somehow that’s even worse! | |
| ▲ | bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Screens are still 2D objects requiring projections. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | With computer generated maps, you can just always use a minimally distorting conical or polar projection centered on the exact point you’re focusing on. That also happens to be broadly what you would get looking straight down at the earth from above that point, which seems like it would also be the least confusing option. | |
| ▲ | scotty79 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah, but when people are free to spin and zoom the virtual globe they understand perfectly how the projection relates to the real object, which they don't when it comes to maps |
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| ▲ | maxglute an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Now rotate it 90 degrees like T and O map. |
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| ▲ | jsLavaGoat 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 80% of the human population lives in the northern hemisphere, but closer to the equator. |
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| ▲ | LeFantome 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Time to rename Mercator the “Map of America”. |
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| ▲ | mdp2021 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The distortions in maps with non orthogonal axes are evident already looking at Europe (though with centering at Greenwich). So, not just the "Map of America (of the Americas)" or "Map of Australia"... The compromises are just everywhere. Of course. (Yes, I get what you meant. I am just suggesting other angles.) | |
| ▲ | 4lx87 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don't give the lying-felon-in-chief any ideas. |
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| ▲ | AlexandrB 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| What's the material difference between this and Trump's "my button is bigger"[1] nonsense or the renaming of various bodies of water? I know the UN claims that "Correcting cartographic distortions of continental sizes constitutes an act of cognitive justice and memorial reparation." but it's purely symbolic and changes nothing geopolitically. My personal favourite equal-area projection is something like Boggs eumorphic[2] because it doesn't distort the east and westmost polar regions quite as badly. The value of a geographic projection is in its utility for the task at hand, not whether it flatters the correct countries. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42549687 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boggs_eumorphic_projection |
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| ▲ | dgellow 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The main difference is that the UN didn’t force anything and isn’t unilaterally deciding what projection to use. The countries decided together to use a new default when showing the world map, that’s it. You can still use whatever projection you want, nothing will happen to you. > it's purely symbolic and changes nothing geopolitically. That’s literally what the UN is for. The UN isn’t a supranational organization fixing conflicts. It’s a forum for countries to discuss and agree on things, in practice that means mostly symbolic decisions pass. Which is fine, symbols and defaults matter | | |
| ▲ | bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The UN isn’t a supranational organization fixing conflicts. The UN's explicit purpose is to try and prevent conflict. One of the requirements to join is to renounce the right to use force in international relations except in self-defense. They do that in a number of ways. One of those is to have these types of symbolic votes. The hope is that by having where everyone stands out in the open, whether on silly things or serious things, it will reduce conflict. Does it work? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Obviously world peace hasn't been achieved. It probably never will be. Nonetheless, that is the goal of the UN. They want to try to fix conflicts. | |
| ▲ | Muromec 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The UN isn’t a supranational organization fixing conflicts. It kinda is, it also have powers to authorize invasions. Not that any of this works in practice, but that's what is for. | |
| ▲ | hn993302 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trump didn't unilaterally decide what the rest of the world calls two bodies of water, only the US | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | He doesn't even have the power to unilaterally declare what the US calls it. Names of geographic features are established by popular usage, not governments. |
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| ▲ | neuronexmachina 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I know the UN claims that "Correcting cartographic distortions of continental sizes constitutes an act of cognitive justice and memorial reparation." but it's purely symbolic and changes nothing geopolitically. This is kind of personally embarrassing, but due to seeing Mercator maps all the time growing up it wasn't until later in life that I realized that Greenland isn't actually a gigantic landmass the size of Africa. > The value of a geographic projection is in its utility for the task at hand Other than maritime navigation, I can't think of many tasks where Mercator would be more useful than an equal-area projection. | | |
| ▲ | rmunn 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Other than maritime navigation, I can't think of many tasks where Mercator would be more useful than an equal-area projection. Precisely why, I suspect, the US voted against the change. (One of the reasons, at least) I mean, gee, I wonder why the country with the world's largest navy* would prefer maps where you can draw a line on the map between two points and it's the actual compass direction? (Give or take a bit of weirdness near the poles, where the difference between the Earth's rotational pole and its magnetic pole actually matters in a way it doesn't matter below the polar circles). It's just a symbolic vote, of course, and nobody's navy is going to stop using the so-useful-for-maritime-navigation Mercator just because of this UN vote. But still, I would bet that factored into the reasoning. How much? Who knows, I certainly couldn't say. Except to suspect that it was a non-trivial factor. * Largest by tonnage — China and Russia have more total ships, with the US in third place by ship count, but the US has nearly half the number of aircraft carriers in the entire world, 11 out of a total of 23, and aircraft carriers are some of the heaviest ships out there. Numbers are from https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/largest-n... | |
| ▲ | dnautics 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > many tasks where Mercator would be more useful than an equal-area projection. What sort of tasks besides a size measuring contest is an equal area projection good for? | | |
| ▲ | hn993302 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Besides size, there's distance. Like it's annoying how UK and France look much further apart than they actually are, and every sea/air route appears to not take the shortest path. I'd be fine with this change if it weren't about trying to make Africa look more important. They're just fixing a misleading map. | | |
| ▲ | josephcsible 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Equal area projections don't preserve distance. | |
| ▲ | neuronexmachina 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's worth noting that Equal Earth isn't an equidistant projection. The upper bound on distance distortion is an order of magnitude less than Mercator's though. | |
| ▲ | dnautics 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What's the task here? | | |
| ▲ | hn993302 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Casually looking at a map to understand relatively how far away things are from each other | | |
| ▲ | dnautics 24 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Unless your eye can casually assemble great circle routes it's hopeless on any projection except the radial one (and then only for routes emanating from one spot) |
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| ▲ | jubilanti 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd bet a lot of money that Trump and all the others pushing for a U.S. "liberation" of Greenland also think it is a similar size to Africa, not 1/14th the size. Africa is 14x larger, but near the same size on the maps our leaders have grown up with for 80+ years. This has clearly influenced geopolitics. Which is the point of the UN. Which is just a container for what the countries of the world want to agree on. When the UN "doesn't work" for some thing it is because the countries of the world don't want to work together for that thing. | | |
| ▲ | tekla 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | > This has clearly influenced geopolitics Citation needed. This feels like the entire hubub from leftists about how schools use the normal map because of racism and not because its actually useful. Of course they were lying the entire time. |
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| ▲ | lukeschlather 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For the purposes I use world maps for, correct relative sizing is the paramount thing I'm looking for in a projection. I generally use it to give me a rough idea of distances. Boggs seems inferior, at a glance I have no idea how far it is from NYC to London, for example. I feel like Mercator is similarly bad in terms of distances being uniform. What do you use maps for where Boggs is superior? | |
| ▲ | sb057 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >I know the UN claims that "Correcting cartographic distortions of continental sizes constitutes an act of cognitive justice and memorial reparation." but it's purely symbolic and changes nothing geopolitically. Symbols are arguably the most important aspect of geopolitics. | | |
| ▲ | EA-3167 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah… the US condemnations of the Axis powers is what really turned the tide, joining into the war later was really a post-script right? | | |
| ▲ | neuronexmachina 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Counterpoint: the Cold War was pretty much all about geopolitical symbols, e.g. the Berlin Wall, nuclear deterrence, the Space Race, counting Olympic medals. | | |
| ▲ | tekla 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Berlin Wall, nuclear deterrence, the Space Race, counting Olympic medals I'm sure the guns trained on people trying to cross the Berlin wall to the west was just a "symbol", or the nuclear tests to prove that superpowers could kill everyone, or the people who died during the space race to send someone to the Moon. Olympics, sure whatever. Yes, a nonbinding UN resolution that does a stupid thing that no one has to care about is a symbol, just one no one cares about because its nonbinding. | | |
| ▲ | poncho_romero 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | To some people the Berlin Wall was an immediate and terrible factor in their lives. But to most people in the world, it was a symbol of oppression rather than a physical manifestation of it. |
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| ▲ | Muromec 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except the part where had to lift an old mainframe from that frozen shithole with a helicopter under fire. And like 10 different proxy wars that are still going on. |
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| ▲ | watwut 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nazi were big on symbols. And very good in their use of them for propaganda. Yes, they played role in getting support for their project. And allies were engaged in that too. |
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| ▲ | frieseke 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The UN is a body that is intended to facilitate global cooperation. This symbolic change better represents the body's members and updates an incorrect visualization, which leads to better cooperation and representation. Trump's renaming changes serve his own whims and selfish ego, they perform the opposite effect and hinder global cooperation. | |
| ▲ | erxam 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not the most pressing issue in the world, but long-term, maps do shape conceptions about the world that we don't personally know. So it might be symbolic, but symbols are powerful. | | |
| ▲ | EA-3167 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | That must be why we all live in awe and fear of giant, mighty Greenland. | | |
| ▲ | erxam 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | The fact that Greenland looks so big and impressive in a Mercator map has probably influenced Trump's obsession with taking it on some level. |
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| ▲ | GolfPopper 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/977/ |
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| ▲ | lordloki 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "And since we often, without thinking, use size as a proxy for importance or power, this subtly reinforces a sense of northern superiority over the global south." We also use position as a proxy for importance or power, so perhaps they should flip the map over as well. /s |
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| ▲ | frmersdog 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Oh, this is just getting started when it comes to upsetting traditionalists. I'd wager that the majority of map-reading happens on a screen these days, using software maps that can be rotated without changing the relative orientation of the labels. ...So why is it "Sub-Saharan Africa"? Why not "Super-Saharan Africa"? "Dexterous-Saharan Africa"? "Sinister-Saharan Africa?" It's all just convention (that just happens to favor Eurocentric notions). "Free your mind." -Morpheus |
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| ▲ | qwerty_clicks 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| and trump pooped his pants over it |