| ▲ | SoftTalker an hour ago |
| Yes, this was the same thought I had. What about investing in children by making it easier for their own mother to actually care for them, instead of working outside the home and dumping the kid in an institution. |
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| ▲ | nkrisc an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Your phrasing betrays your bias. Having kids in childcare is not the downfall of society, and in some ways is similar to The Way Things Used To Be. My youngest goes to pre-school childcare where he gets to interact with kids and parents from his local community whom we see outside of childcare as well. He sees his “teacher” when he walks with me and his older brother to his school because her daughter goes to the same school as his brother. The people who work there are part of the community as well. Childcare can be the modern form of the village collectively caring for the children so that not every parent is busy with child-rearing all the time. It’s also good for kids to spend time interacting with people who aren’t part of their immediate family. Not every childcare program is created equal, but there is a place and need for good ones. Not once has it ever felt like “dumping him in an institution”. Your kids do not need you 100% of the time, and usually it’s better they’re not with you 100% of the time. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, and epecially when the child is a bit older then introducing a "preschool" situation for a few hours a day is probably valuable. But having an infant in a daycare for 8-10 hours a day is probably not. | | |
| ▲ | danans 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > But having an infant in a daycare for 8-10 hours a day is probably not. That's a different problem that would be better addressed by mandatory paid parental leave and universal healthcare - so new parents can afford not to work while their child is an infant. | |
| ▲ | estearum an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I would bet that approximately 100% of people advocating for funded childcare programs++ would want to avoid the "putting infants in daycare for 8-10hrs/day" scenario. | | |
| ▲ | moduspol 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | In what way? I've seen many people advocate for universal childcare as a way to get mom back to working full time as quickly as possible. I've also seen it framed as a way of leveling the playing field, so women are less disadvantaged from men as a result of childbirth / care. I find that, if anything, there is little to no stigma to getting your child in daycare ASAP after maternity leave ends and going back to working full time. That's "infants in daycare for 8-10hrs/day". | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why do you think that? |
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| ▲ | greenowl an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's absolutely bonkers how normalized infant and toddler daycare has become in today's society. | | |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And your bias is that if institutionalized child care is shown to lead to worse outcomes than parents caring for their own children, you will feel a lot of personal guilt. | |
| ▲ | barbazoo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My kids are around so many other kids, interacting, playing, arguing, sometimes fighting (hands to yourself!), they are around so many caring adults that live nearby, we talk to them every time we see them. I know how lucky we are. I bet people that say dumping your kid at an institution have no idea how nice life could be in that regard. | | | |
| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost 37 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, community raising of children is how it "used to be" but dropping your kids off for 8-10 hours a day to be raised by absolute strangers with zero ties to your family and spending time with other kids who have zero familial ties to you as well and maybe even no community ties is not the same at all. | | |
| ▲ | undersuit 32 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How do they have no community ties? Did you drive the children 20 miles away from home? | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 14 minutes ago | parent [-] | | How well does the average parent know the other parents and children on the first day dropping their kid off at daycare? |
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| ▲ | adamrezich an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | All of my friends' kids who are in daycare get sick frequently. I work on the top floor of a building that has a YMCA daycare on many of the bottom floors, and I often get sick passing through there on the way to work. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Same will be true of in person school. I think Covid showed pretty definitively that avoiding illness through extreme social isolation is not worth the costs in emotional and social development. | |
| ▲ | nkrisc 44 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, kids pass germ to each other. This will happen any time lots of kids are in one place. | |
| ▲ | danans 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > But having an infant in a daycare for 8-10 hours a day is probably not. Unless the child is immunosuppressed, outside of a novel pandemic scenario, a vaccinated child is not likely to contract a very serious infection beyond the common cold or flu by being in childcare. Much of that can be mitigated by giving parents the flexibility (sick leave) to keep their children home while ill. > I work on the top floor of a building that has a YMCA daycare on many of the bottom floors, and I often get sick passing through there on the way to work. Perhaps you are uniquely susceptible? I don't think this generalizes to most people if they practice public hygiene habits like washing your hands when arriving at the office. |
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| ▲ | graemep an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Their own mother or father. This is important for multiple reasons. Some fathers are better parents (I undoubtedly was), if you assume mothers do childcare it limits choices for both men and women. It is a barrier to equal childcare which I feel is ideal. Even other family member will have a lasting relationship with them and give them more one to one attention. |
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| ▲ | AndrewDucker an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Having had two kids go through nursery from an early age, they absolutely had a better time there, with more friends and a higher quality of entertainment, than they would have had at home with either of us. |
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| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You can take your kids to parents days out or parks where they consistently meet with other kids and become friends. The option isn't 100% daycare or 100% staying at home and never seeing anyone. | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | That has to be true for the preservation of your own emotional well being and self image as a good person. |
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| ▲ | Kinrany an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Children being cared for solely by their parents isn't "natural": children used to be raised by entire villages |
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| ▲ | MaxHoppersGhost 36 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes but a daycare isn't your village raising your kids, it's random people, most aren't from your community much less your own country. | | |
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| ▲ | eszed an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm deliberately not addressing the article as a whole, but I'd like to engage with your smaller point. My parents viewed all day care as "dumping [their] kid in an institution" and made massive sacrifices so that my mum could housewife for a decade+ with me and my younger sister. My wife and I have made a different choice with our son, and I honestly wish my parents had done the same - at least after we were two or three. Admittedly, my wife and I are fortunate to be able to pay for him to go to an excellent pre-school (though the one local to my parents was similarly good), and I see him naturally acquiring a social fluency and confidence with his peers that I didn't have (if I even do!) until I was an adult. Furthermore, had I been cared for outside the home, my mum would have spent vastly more time with my sister when she was an infant and toddler, which I think would have been a lifelong benefit to her. I also think my mum would have been personally better off getting back to full-time work ~5 years earlier than she did: full-time parenting wore on her, and she and my dad would have been able to retire a few years sooner. Those are all highly-dependent personal circumstances, so I'm not going to draw a universal rule - but I'm telling you this in order to caution you against doing the same. All families, and all individual circumstances, are different. [Second thought] I am going to make one general point: the benefit my son draws is highly dependent upon attending a good school. Institutions absolutely exist where "dumping them" is an appropriate epithet to apply, but there is no reason why that has to be the case. I don't know where you live, but in my country the "pro-natalist" political party is also devoted to policies which make schools worse (cutting funding, lowering teacher pay, meddling with curricula, etc), which seems to me to be perverse. |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You are citing the results of an experiment that is impossible to perform. |
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| ▲ | 34 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | nemomarx an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| how would that work? replacing her lost wages to be sure it's not an economic disadvantage sounds hard |
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| ▲ | jimbokun 4 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | We had a few decades in the US where it was pretty normal and comfortable to raise a family on a single income. What law of physics dictates that it’s impossible to construct such a society again? | |
| ▲ | bluGill an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is more to life than economics. Economics should put a floor on what you do in life - that is you need enough food to live, and enough shelter (including clothing)... However once that basics are met you need to ask about trade offs. Rice and beans are a nice meal once in a while, but sometimes I want "steak and caviar". Likewise, all I need to live is a "tiny house" shack with some heat - but I really like having more space. I wouldn't mind having the largest private house in the world complete with staff to maintain it - but the work I would need to afford is not something I'm willing to do (I'm not sure if I could get into the CEO suite if I tried, but I know enough of that CEOs do with their life that I'm not willing for that) At what point will you decide that something other than economics matter? I can tell you now that I have kids time with the kids is more important than money. However I'm also a staff software engineer and so I'm making more $$ than most. You need to make your own decisions based on your own life. | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You are either paying the mother (or father) to stay home, or paying for child care so they can work. I don't think it has to be a completely level trade on an economic basis. A lot of parents would prefer to be able to stay home even if it's not a purely economic optimum. And staying at home doesn't necessarily preclude earning any income. A parent could still do part time work from home, or even outside the home, when the other parent is there etc. | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | We managed to have a society with a significant number of families living on one income for quite some time. 2 incomes shouldn’t be a requirement to keep a roof over a family’s head. The goal shouldn’t be “2 incomes,” it should be “1 income is sustainable and families can actually be a family.” | | |
| ▲ | nemomarx an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | making housing affordable also sounds like a pretty hard problem in most of the developed West, yeah? like if you have a good idea definitely pursue it though | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It’s an easy problem but our political system is just really stupid, here in the US. |
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| ▲ | bluGill an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Really? What society? The 1950s got close in the US (I'm not sure about elsewhere, but I doubt it), but even then there were a lot of women working. If you go back to 1800 you will discover that saying families had only one income was because history is generally blind to "women's work" and so you have no idea what women did. (for that matter what most men did is something history only barely mentions). In 1850 a lot of people were more self sufficient - the whole family was growing their own food and making their own cloth - and so saying there was even one income is false - there mostly was no income but they only bought a few things and so only need a small income rarely. (historians can give you a much longer and more complex answer - mine is a gross simplification) | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun a few seconds ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes the 1950s is the existence proof. I don’t see the relevance of the 1850s, our economic productivity has greatly increased since then. Why can we no longer have the same economic productivity we had in the 1950s that allowed for more single income families? | |
| ▲ | visarga 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In 1850 a lot of people were more self sufficient - the whole family was growing their own food and making their own cloth - and so saying there was even one income is false - there mostly was no income but they only bought a few things and so only need a small income rarely This was true for my grandparents in 1970s | |
| ▲ | Forgeties79 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s a fair point I considered including but it’s easy to get lost in the weeds here so I opted for an overly simplistic description. Ultimately what I am trying to say is the household income now required for many is too high and often unobtainable without 2 full time incomes outside the home (and often that’s not enough). That’s not sustainable if we don’t want people offloading all their parenting outside their home. The one working at home (domestic tasks and misc.) one working outside the home (direct income) model is basically impossible now for most people. | | |
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