| ▲ | bob1029 2 hours ago |
| A natural evolution of engineers losing touch with the customers and users. I'm noticing some of the concern play out regarding AI weakening the capabilities of software people. I gave the team an exact solution on a silver platter and they still failed to identify how to go about it after 3 days slamming it into Claude. The resolution is literally 1 line of code that could be arrived at in about 30 minutes of patient, old school troubleshooting. I think what's happening is the AI system draws poorly aligned and led engineers into this ego inflation feedback loop where they are completely detached from reality because these tools can simulate a better one. |
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| ▲ | konschubert an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's the uncanny valley of AI. It's still not quite good enough that you can trust it blindly on a big codebase, so you still have to read and understand everything - which is often harder than just writing it up yourself. |
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| ▲ | noir_lord 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Pretty much, The one thing I use it for is as a sanity check, pretty much "Look at <SomeFile>, point out issues you see, summarise them tersely" and it'll spot stuff a code review by a human might have spotted (in the mythical land where people actually do code reviews properly and don't just flag a spelling mistake to "show they looked at it"). Beyond that I don't trust it at all and I still write all my code the meat sack way. Trust is earned not given and it hasn't earned it yet. |
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| ▲ | themgt 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I gave the team an exact solution on a silver platter and they still failed to identify how to go about it I think what's happening is ... poorly aligned and led engineers [in] this ego inflation feedback loop where they are completely detached from reality A story about a team of humans with some very human problems. |
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| ▲ | Root_Denied 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm seeing this happen in the security space right now. Someone on my team I was helping train and bring along is all of sudden regressing in their understanding of the issues we're working on, and instead focusing on AI tool outputs to do their job for them. |
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| ▲ | mawadev 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I can share a weird story: Usually, I take my time to understand each keyword of the code I'm looking at, especially if it is new to me, like terraform. I work in a team/with one architect, who only did the DevOps/Infra stuff for the past years and I had the expectation he knows what he is doing and talking about. At around 2 weeks, I noticed how his knowledge has severe gaps and how he takes things at face value or uses terminology interchangably, which confuses me. It sounds plausible, but it does not actually translate into a working system or shared understanding. Then one day I did some pair programming with him and whenever there was an error or a resource missing, he would type it into the LLM, copy paste it out of it and then brute force error messages. He did not even wait a second to think or reconcile whats happening on the screen or what the exact requirement is. Never taking one step back and questioning any assumption. Now that the timeline is shifting and everyone starts to be stressed, he continues to vibe code through me and it is so tiring, there is no higher level planning or architecture, its just a reactive type of trial and error to be faster.
It feels like these people are so used to talking to bots, that they treat you like an agent they can chat to or talk through monologs with. It is quite shocking how people went from being humble (learn the basics or close the gaps in understanding) to full on authority on everything and berating people 24/7... So right now I'm considering quitting IT for a couple of years until people calm down, but I think its pretty futile | | |
| ▲ | 2wrist an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Great comment. At my place, this is what they want. They want people to smash through things as fast as possible. They don’t want people to sit and craft a solution which takes in to account the whole. They are choosing tools which are low code, and use llm’s to produce what they need. as they say “this is the way things are going”. | |
| ▲ | wccrawford an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't think it's generalizable. The kind of person who copy and pastes from the AI is the kind who did the same from StackOverflow before. It's more compelling, and we probably see more of them because of it, but it's the same general thing. The kind of person who insists on understanding things and working through the problem has always been rarer. It's not "humble", it's "inquisitive" and "persistent". | | |
| ▲ | danielheath an hour ago | parent [-] | | I'm seeing people who _used to be_ like that losing that understanding without realizing it's happening - they have a superficial idea of what the code is doing, enough to feel like they understand it, but the change is apparent when watching them handle something unexpected. | | |
| ▲ | Tade0 a minute ago | parent [-] | | LLMs reduced interest on tech debt, but it's still there and people who have a tendency to acquire it will go bankrupt eventually. |
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| ▲ | DiggyJohnson an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You captured this phenomenon very well in this comment. Appreciate you sharing it because it’s hard to describe exactly what makes this sort of behavior so bizarre. | |
| ▲ | MichaelRo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >> he continues to vibe code through me So quit pair programming. I never did, never will do that, nor worked at a place that remotely encouraged that. Each to their own, that's how it should be. |
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| ▲ | gregglain 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I saw this the past year - new employees would put problems into Claude first instead of debugging. A year back I was debug manually first, now I do the same. The speed AI debugs at is incredible and yes, we lose touch the more we use it like any manager feet up barking orders to their underlings to get things done. | |
| ▲ | mitxela 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In my mind, this, not copyright or water use, is the best reason to boycott AI. It'll make you incompetent. | |
| ▲ | coffeebeqn 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | At least at my company the OKRs are quite clear and demand heavy AI utilization above all else |
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| ▲ | pratyushnair01 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've felt that AI can figure out and fix 90% issues, but it rarely does minimal, non invasive fixes. That still requires manual effort. But going from a broad to minimal fix is still a different skillset from actual debugging, so in the the end it does lead to skill atrophy. |
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| ▲ | edg5000 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I it usually doesn't get me in this weird state of mind, but I once spent 6 months (all-in) building a thing that I, once finished, just left alone completely (on disk gathering dust). Weird experience. So I'd say AI physchosis is real. |
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| ▲ | ffsm8 38 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sincerely , I think you're blaming the AI incorrectly there. You just got incompetents on your payroll. |
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| ▲ | wegwerf17377382 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | So how do you build competence in a world where AI is preached to be the most reasonable way to solve problems because it's supposed to be faster than humans? | |
| ▲ | mitxela 35 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | incompetent people, surely? |
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| ▲ | ulrikrasmussen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think LLMs have some of the same risks and benefits of stimulant drugs. They can make you more productive if used effectively as a tool, but they can also delude you into thinking you are better than you are and create a dependence such that you aren't just less productive without the LLM/drug, you fail to be productive at all because you don't know how to function without it. |
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| ▲ | setopt an hour ago | parent [-] | | That sounds somewhat applicable to many tools. Like Vim/Emacs, for example. Or computers and smart phones in general. |
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| ▲ | PunchyHamster 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't think it's engineers, it's the rest of the org insulating the tech workers from every side of the business |
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| ▲ | bob1029 an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think there are many cases where it was the tech workers themselves who argued for isolation from the customer so that they may focus harder on whatever tasks. I used to be one of these workers. I argued very hard for it. I regret that today. On the surface it seems rational, but it quickly turns into a system of perverse incentives because now the development team must maintain an illusion that they are constantly overwhelmed with tasks and could never hope to spare a microsecond to assist the customer. This misalignment is how you wind up building your own web frameworks and databases from scratch. It turns into a self serving monster that eventually dominates the entire business. From the perspective of the business, many of these development teams look like they're behind some modern day iron curtain. |
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| ▲ | throw839948499 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| If the solution is so simple, why claude did not found it? At this point we can assume, it is better than 90% of engineers (including me). After three decades of outsourcing to lowest bidder, I do not buy that humans are somehow better! > patient, old school troubleshooting I usually see similar arguments around systems with major red flags (no docs, poor CI, decade ago no CVS...). And engineers with private stash of workarounds for job security! Claude does not do anything special. Or perhaps claude was misconfigured, it had no access to relevant part of system, and it tryied to work within its limitation. Often it means decompiling binaries in desperate loop... |
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| ▲ | shakna 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Claude regular spits out six helper functions instead of... A twenty line for loop. It overengineers most things. Overabstracting, deduplicating things that don't need to be. Building metaclasses because it saw a single orchestrator in the whole codebase. If it is a better engineer than you... You need practice. | | |
| ▲ | adjejmxbdjdn an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The funny thing is that if you never understand the codebase then you will keep thinking Claude is doing a great work delivering all this incredible software, when all it has done is created unnecessary tech debt. | |
| ▲ | Foobar8568 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Oh and how is it any different than most software engineers? How many times I heard ORM are bad only to recreate the same shit? How many times I heard ORM had bad performance and see 1+n stuff everywhere? How many times I have seen tight coupling in the name of DRY? | | |
| ▲ | shakna 15 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Its different, in that when you teach that engineer, they either leave because now they hate you, or they grow. They change to meet the standards of a project, rather than inventing their own. We don't get seniors, without juniors. I'd say more than half the job, is just... Learning. People grow. |
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| ▲ | jjav an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > A twenty line for loop. It overengineers most things. Anecdote I like to tell.. I was working on a financial planning software, intentionally purely vibe coded as an experiment. I eventually discovered AI had implemented seven duplicate copies of tax calculation functions. All of them different. All of them wrong. All of them giving different answers for same input. Not even the most junior of newbie junior engineers would do something this crazy. But AI was happy to do it. It will solve the immediate problem, efficiently. Even if the most efficient solution is something ridiculous like this. | | |
| ▲ | ilija139 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I have also a weird story to tell that a human did and it is as crazy as this. It happen in 2019 so no LLMs at all. A person that was hired as an expert in our startup spent more than one week full time working on implementing his solution to the problem we were having. I checked the code after one week to see the progress and was curious how they are implementing an already crazy sounding idea.
I found that the whole week was spent re-implementing in python, python's built-in "float" function. That was it, the whole code was just that. Our problem was related to financial services and their implementation of "float" was not even correct. | |
| ▲ | gnz11 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which model though? I have similar anecdotes but all with older models. The jump in capabilities in the last 6 months has been substantial. | |
| ▲ | UpsideDownRide 18 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | For some definitions of efficiency. |
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| ▲ | throw839948499 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I am former java enterprise dev, so yes I often code this way. Unit testing, decomposition... Some projects CI refuse to merge commits with 20 line loop and duplicated code... But that is not a point. Claude can code tight compact loops, it just needs to be instructed to do so! If it does "enterprise code", it means it had no instructions about code style. If your documentation, spec, agent.md does not have proper guidance on coding style... yet another red flag! | | |
| ▲ | shakna 17 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > it just needs to be instructed to do so! Considering how often it overrules, its own rules? |
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| ▲ | raverbashing 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | 100% It is my pet peeve with Claude and why I don't prefer it for most stuff (also the comment spam - but that's a all of them in a way or another) |
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| ▲ | Sharlin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So after 30 years of outsourcing to the bottom 10%, you think Claude is better than the bottom 90% even though it’s so stupid that it doesn’t even know it should ask for advice or more information when it’s stuck? | | |
| ▲ | throw839948499 an hour ago | parent [-] | | It just follows instructions you give it. Some asian devs will go for weeks without asking for help, all while giving amazing fake status reports. Loosing face etc... | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Do you think those devs are in the top 10% of all devs like you said Claude is? Or is the bar suddenly much lower after all? | |
| ▲ | tannertech an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're comparing scammers to incompetence |
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| ▲ | alex_smart an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because simplicity is hard and often the result of careful thought. Anybody can keep piling pile of shit on top of pile of shit which is why that sort of code is so common in our industry. | |
| ▲ | SyneRyder an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | While I actually agree with you (though, outsourcing to lowest bidder would account for much of what you're seeing with humans), I just saw Bug Hunt Bench scores that gave me some pause: https://x.com/PawelHuryn/status/2095982259761475945 https://bughunt.productcompass.pm/?preset=all Claude Opus 4.8 ranks near last on this Bug Hunt benchmark, and missed 96% of the deliberately introduced bugs. If you're a developer who has been falling back to Opus 4.8 because of how Opus 5 talks, and Fable 5 being so expensive that it needs to be rationed... well, turns out Opus 4.8 can actually be quite poor for finding bugs. (Which feels weird to me, because Opus 4.6 fixed a bug that myself and a group of humans had been hunting down for over a decade. Models are spiky.) Also surprising to me: Luna Max performing better than Fable 5.1 High, at least on this benchmark. But Astra 6 & Fable 5.1 on Max both perform at the top as you would expect. | | |
| ▲ | throw839948499 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Still, basic debuging and trouble shooting is where LLM generally shine. Any model can bisect git history and isolate newly introduced bug. If model can not automatically reproduce bug, while human manually can... you got a problem in CI. > Luna Max performing better than Fable 5.1 High Perhaps you are reading too many benchmarks. Edit for answer : I agree Luna is great cheap model. But if Fable was hitting security limits, yet was still included in benchmarks... What flies better? Elephant or paper plane. You can make objective benchmark about that. But not much value for logistics company | | |
| ▲ | SyneRyder 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Perhaps you are reading too many benchmarks. Maybe, but at least the benchmark provides an objective measurement of the codebase it is tested on. You're also assuming the bugs are newly introduced / regressions. I can give a concrete example - Fable will not interact with bugs that result in writing to null pointers in C code. That triggers the guardrails and ends the session. If Luna (or GLM Flash, etc) will fix those kinds of memory bugs, that immediately puts it ahead of Fable in some ways, no matter how tiny Luna is. Again, models are spiky. I still agree with your initial point! It's LLMs all the way down over here. It would need to be a particularly gnarly bug & an exceptionally talented human for me to want to pay another human to work on fixing it now. |
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| ▲ | gspr an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > At this point we can assume, it is better than 90% of engineers (including me). Hard disagree. We absolutely cannot assume that. You can posit it, and we can have an informed debate about it. This is what irks me the most about LLM fans: they constantly try to reframe the debate to have their worldview as the agreed-upon starting point. | |
| ▲ | bob1029 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That final 10% is the hard part. 90% is easy. |
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