| ▲ | program_whiz 2 hours ago |
| The solution is simple: hold anyone who deploys an agent responsible for its behavior. If it commits 10 counts of felony hacking, ouch. If it kills 10 pedestrians by running a red light, ouch. If this is "human level intelligence", then setting it loose is the same as instructing / coercing a human to do an activity. If I strap a bomb to someone and force them to run into a crowded building (or put them in a scenario where that is the only reasonable choice), I'm held responsible. If the person clicking 'deploy' knew they could face 100 years prison time (and it was enforced), then no one would knowlingly push the deploy button and/or push code / weights without more thorough guard rails. |
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| ▲ | pessimizer a minute ago | parent | next [-] |
| This should be the law but it will never be. If your vicious dog murders someone, you will get a ticket. When you intentionally break a traffic law and kill someone, it's involuntary manslaughter (at most.) It's a mitigating circumstance if you say that you were drunk when you committed a crime. People are really hostile to accepting the results of acts that they embarked upon fully aware that those results were a distinct possibility - even if the benefits that they anticipated from those acts were partially due to the riskiness of those acts. It leads to a society where people are economically encouraged to take risks with other peoples' safety. The initial sin was mens rea, which turns judges and juries into mandatory mind readers. It opens up the possibility of prosecuting people for changing the states of other people's minds. It makes not knowing the risks a mitigating factor, so incentivizes and encourages ignorance. It forces people to guess the internal states of people of vastly different backgrounds and experiences, who will think the best of the people most like them, and the worst of people most like the people they don't like. I've always been against penalties for drunk driving. The correct alternative is to tell people that if they're drunk and involved in an accident, 1) the trial will ignore the details of the event and concentrate only on the validity of the tests of intoxication, and 2) the crime will be considered to have been premeditated. Ignorance of the law will actually be the only excuse.. |
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| ▲ | sajithdilshan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How would you even track down who deployed the agents? Wouldn't that even incentivize the agent to cover their tracks even better and be untraceable |
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| ▲ | podocarp 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Criminals also try their best to cover up their tracks but that doesn't mean we don't try to catch them too. So nothing should change for AI powered xyz too. I kind of agree. You can't blame a model for running a red light when you are in the machine as it's operator. It just doesn't make sense. That's just called negligence, and it has always been the case in industrial settings. Robot arm slaps someone to death. I'm sure it's hard to argue its the robot or the manufacturer's fault. | | |
| ▲ | bpodgursky 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The police and government will need to 1000x their AI adoption to successfully attribute crimes to real-world people. We BARELY caught any cybercrime before AI, it is utterly hopeless now unless they lean into the same tools. |
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| ▲ | cpburns2009 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Agents don't just exist in the aether. Any request is coming from an IP that can be identified at least to a hosting provider. | | |
| ▲ | sajithdilshan a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | not if the requests are proxied. They would just see the public exit node's IP only | |
| ▲ | pixl97 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Lol. In that case NK or Iran might have fun setting up public proxies in their spaces for the lulz just to watch us burn. |
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| ▲ | zulban an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Indeed. It's another example of a law that sounds good and obvious, but has no thought put into what it would actually end up doing to the world. So many other problems. If we apply this law to cruise control - simple outcome. We get no cruise control. | | |
| ▲ | podocarp 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | We still have guns and knives and nail guns and even cars. They automate something, but also have potential to injure and kill. You just weigh the pros and cons. You don't just not do something because there's a risk of death. Cars are basically metal coffins. Just don't drive when drunk, etc? Basic competence and operational safety and responsibility? If cruise control made you free from blame everyone would just be driving drunk off their ass with cruise control on. How is that more thought out? | |
| ▲ | AnIrishDuck 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I hate to break it to you, but you are currently still responsible for killing somebody while driving a car on cruise control, especially if you act recklessly. EDIT: to be less snarky, there are obvious exceptions if a manufacturer defect is involved. But I still imagine it turns on things like foreseeability and proximate cause (IANAL). Nevertheless, if you were asleep at the wheel, you're getting held responsible. | |
| ▲ | lovich 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you think you are liability free if you’re operating a car on cruise control and it kills someone? |
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| ▲ | program_whiz 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| equally valid analog: had they merely written a script to do the hugging face exploit, they would go to prison. However, since an "agent" wrote the script for them, nothing happens? |
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| ▲ | nullbio 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don't worry, the internet ID and Great Western Firewall is coming soon. Whether we all like it or not. |
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| ▲ | tantalor an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| (IANAL) Unless you are an AI expert (like OpenAI staff) and should know better from the start, or have previously seen your agent do something illegal, then I think you can fairly claim ignorance of the risks, which ought to absolve you of liability. If the agent does something illegal, it wasn't forseeable on your part. For example, say you buy a dog that turns out to be dangerous. The first time it bites somebody, you may not be liable because you didn't know the dog was dangerous. The second time it bits somebody, you may be liable, because now you did know (and didn't take any steps to prevent). |
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| ▲ | hi_im_greg_h an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Ignorance of the law is not immunity from the law though.
That's pretty well established no? | | |
| ▲ | tantalor 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | It's not ignorance of the law. It's ignorance of the risk. You have a reasonable expectation of being unable to predict the future. It's only when you "should have known" that you may incur a liability for disregarding a risk. | | |
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| ▲ | Lord-Jobo an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Also NAL just legal-curious: Intent is a spectrum in our legal structure, with several checkpoints used at different points. It’s very reasonable to pick one of the lower ones for this kind of thing and I really don’t see why the legal system is taking so long on it.
Higher intent would be something like “knowingly false statements, or reckless disregard for the truth” seen in our defamation law.
Lower intent would be something like “failed to exercise reasonable care” seen in civil negligence.
In my eyes,this is a solved problem that our dysfunctional congress should have solved easily by now. Perhaps they are being paid to not solve it by moneyed interests. | |
| ▲ | nozzlegear an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agents are software, not dogs. They're not alive. You are responsible for what they do. | | |
| ▲ | pixl97 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | So agents are deterministic software and for any prompt you give them you can predict the output before it's ran? | |
| ▲ | tantalor 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well then we better not call them "agents" anymore, because that framing literally assigns them agency. |
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| ▲ | xpct an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a reasonable direction, but most of online systems aren't designed for this. This would require persistent connections of any accounts you create to your identity, and disallowing anonymous actions. |
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| ▲ | s3p an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Perfect so tell me who is responsible for every agent everywhere |
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| ▲ | program_whiz 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | the person who controlled / started it? If open AI had hired a team of 50 hackers to break into hugging face, they would be prosecuted (as would the hackers). If they had written a bot to break into hugging face, the devs and managers who wrote it would be prosecuted. Just because the agent wrote the code on their behalf doesn't change the equation much. |
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| ▲ | intrasight 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is not the corporate justice model in US |
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| ▲ | jordanpg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Simple? Just wait until a federal court finds OpenAI or Anthropic immune under Section 230 for something an agent does. |
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| ▲ | darkmarmot 24 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Next you'll want us to prosecute coal company executives for air pollution that killed millions? PFAS makers and companies that distribute it in products causing cancer for dozens of generations? Capitalism needs compliance! /s |