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uncomputation a day ago

Maybe I am pessimistic but it seems no one cares about climate change these days. All of Los Angeles is sweltering now. Just pointing fingers and dropping individual names while the world continues to heat slowly. Any suggestions to get involved are welcome, I don’t want to be just a complainer.

shikshake a day ago | parent | next [-]

Get politically involved, vote and and volunteer for local pro-climate candidates. Talk about and promote public transport, cycling, better zoning and infrastructure etc. People underestimate the power of local politics.

On a macro scale all you can really do is vote for national level candidates that care about these issues. Luckily it’s not hard to see which ones do and which ones don’t.

SoftTalker a day ago | parent | next [-]

Individually you can't do anything. You can drive an EV, set your AC to 78, or whatever makes you feel good but only national governments can make the regulatory changes that will really have an impact.

I even roll my eyes at my city council spending even one second on climate change policy (and they have spent whole meetings on it). Our city of 80,000 people could disappear from the face of the planet and it would not make a bit of difference.

tito a day ago | parent | next [-]

Working at the level of 80,000 people is a lot more effective than working at the level of an individual.

Working on your own carbon footprint is a $100M marketing trick played on you by oil companies like BP.

Leah Stokes' new book offers instead a "carbon wave" -- how to evaluate and maximize your impact at a local, state, national, and global level. Here's a LinkedIn post. She's got a new book coming out about this: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:share:7496265286...

estearum a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can vote

SoftTalker a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes you can but you'll have to vote against your immediate self interest and comfort. The sort of changes that will have an impact on the climate will mean giving up a lot of what makes modern life convenient and comfortable.

agentultra a day ago | parent | next [-]

Not that much of a difference for the average or lower classes of people that outnumber the rich by quite a lot. It would have a great and positive impact for them.

SoftTalker a day ago | parent [-]

No, the rich will be able to pay the carbon taxes easily, the average folks will suffer under them.

Timon3 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Carbon taxes can be implemented such that average folks benefit from them, e.g. by paying everyone back the average tax amount. Wealth generally correlates with carbon emissions, so wealthy people would pay more than they get back. This would greatly incentivize less emissions-intensive products and services.

Unfortunately there's no way the rich would ever let this go through.

SoftTalker 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> Wealth generally correlates with carbon emissions

That may be true but there aren't enough wealthy people to just attack their consumption. In aggregate, regular people use a lot more energy. There's no way out of this that is going to be popular.

Timon3 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> That may be true but there aren't enough wealthy people to just attack their consumption.

Not sure I understand, the goal isn't to attack anyone's consumption? The whole idea is to stop costs from being externalized. The concept doesn't require wealthy people to make sense, but existing wealth disparity makes it even more attractive for regular people.

> In aggregate, regular people use a lot more energy.

Why would the aggregate matter? Individually, regular people use waaaay less energy than the upper class. That means these regular people would, on average, come out slightly positive. And the "cleaner" someone's lifestyle is, the better this scheme would leave them (which poor people necessarily tend towards, since they cannot afford spending much on consumption).

tzs a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Changes can be phased in. For example that's why places phasing out ICE cars are generally doing it by phasing out new ICE sales over many years and letting any cars already on the road when new sales stop stay on the road, and are concurrently building public charging infrastructure.

grackasthebig a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thermodynamics; your convenience and comfort (CnC) are merely externalized on others not eliminated; someone else makes your stuff, deals with the environmental toll in the future.

Happy to sacrifice some of your CnC to ease obligations on those you give no assurances to.

bluefirebrand a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think there are gradients to this

It would be hard for me to vote against indoor plumbing if that was needed to save the planet

I would vote against "Same Day Delivery" in a heartbeat though, if it helped

tgsovlerkhgsel a day ago | parent | next [-]

Best the corresponding parties can do is banning plastic straws (no impact but feels great) and massive bureaucratic hurdles for air conditioning in private homes (because it's an "unnecessary luxury" and if your apartment is unbearably hot during a heat wave where the temperature doesn't drop below 25 even at night, you're just not correctly using shades and windows).

estearum a day ago | parent [-]

Not really. We've made significant enough progress on this issue to prove that policy-driven progress is in fact possible.

This type of cynicism is both unwarranted and unhelpful.

tgsovlerkhgsel a day ago | parent [-]

These changes were often not driven by the "green" parties though.

estearum 19 hours ago | parent [-]

This is far too complex a conversation to have at the level of abstraction you're trying to have it.

Just say what you're trying to say. I don't know what "green parties" refers to across the entire globe of climate efforts, but quite obviously yes, most of the positive climate policies have been pushed by people who care about the climate.

Just as obvious, most of those policies were not successfully enacted by the fringiest and most extreme versions of pro-climate people.

estearum a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Not to mention there are plenty of environmental improvements that are vast and near-term quality of life improvements. The only penalty on many of these things is financial, but even that is only in the near-term, and in the medium to long term become financial wins.

tyre a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Entirely depends on your district. There are many districts where it doesn't matter, especially with gerrymandering.

Better to volunteer for a swing district. You can write letters or fundraise from home, anywhere in the country.

estearum a day ago | parent [-]

It's absolutely worth voting even in a "safe" district because political mandates are won separately from political power itself.

You should also volunteer for a swing district though! Very good idea.

Noaidi a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Both parties in the United States are pretty much turning a blind eye to climate change. What we need to do is start boycotting parties, telling them we won’t vote for them unless they have really strong climate platforms. We need to make them want our vote.

dalyons a day ago | parent | next [-]

This is some “both sides” absolute bullshit. The Biden administration passed the IRA, huge incentives for personal and commercial renewable energy production, EVs, all kinds of things.

Trump is paying people to burn more coal, blocking solar, canceling wind.

Could the dems have done more, sure. Are those programs perfect, absolutely not. But one party is moving in the right direction and the other is actively trying to accelerate climate change. Gtfo with that both sides crap.

cdaringe a day ago | parent | next [-]

100%. Would have gone even harder if some moderates didn’t gunk up the works too.

The both sides bit is jaw droppingly ignorant if you pay attention to regional and national politics.

Noaidi 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They are both not doing enough. Yes, the Republicans and Trump are much worse, I was not saying they were same at all. But what needs to happen is far from anything the Biden administration has done or proposed. IF you think what Biden has done was good enough then you do not understand what is happening with the climate right now. Yes I will vote for a Democrat over a Republican, but I am not expecting change to come from them, it needs to come from us. The Democrats get money from the same corporations.

estearum 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Imagine thinking that politicians give literally even one single fuck about non-voters' opinions lmao

Noaidi 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Did you see what happened to Harris in Michigan when people protested and did not support her?

https://www.wcmu.org/local-regional-news/2025-01-16/michigan...

Well, this is what she said after the race was over:

Harris labels Biden Gaza response ‘inadequate’: ‘I … pleaded with Joe’ https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5517261-kamala-h...

You have to make them want your vote.

estearum 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Not sure what argument you're trying to make here.

xboxnolifes 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A small town's policy can influence larger city policy, which can influence national policy.

dylan604 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I even roll my eyes at my city council spending even one second on climate change policy

Every meeting minute spent on discussing climate change is another minute not spent on authorizing things like Flock or permitting data centers. That's nothing to roll your eyes about

thothless a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

well obviously YOU couldn't. you seem to lack the willpower to sacrifice a single convenience in favor of the rest of us, per your confession below.

that's the difference between you and the public servants that you roll your eyes at.

mxkopy a day ago | parent | prev [-]

“Everyone wants the village, nobody wants to be the villager.” Maybe look into changing what you want.

Gigachad a day ago | parent | prev [-]

You can do all of that, and then Elon Musk will use his hundreds of billions to install another pedofile in charge who won't give a shit about the environment.

wolvoleo a day ago | parent [-]

I remember when Musk was genuinely trying to make the world better with electric cars.

Now he's more worried about which toilets people use.

edoceo a day ago | parent | next [-]

He could use his assets/wealth to ensure everyone on earth has a functional, hygienic toilet. Would improve QOL for many who still live with open sewer systems.

vachina a day ago | parent [-]

He does that by sponsoring tons of H1Bs.

georgemcbay a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I remember when Musk was genuinely trying to make the world better with electric cars.

People rarely 'go bad' like that. You just learn more about who they really are over time.

Noaidi a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Elon Musk was never trying to make the world a better place. He was always a businessman and he was using that to con the government into giving him money so he can make more money.

amluto a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> All of Los Angeles is sweltering now.

I think that, if people who believe in climate change want to be convincing, it would be more effective to avoid blaming specific instances of weather on climate change without strong justification. Especially when the weather isn’t even abnormal.

Los Angeles, especially inland and in the valley, is hot in the summer. It was hot in the summer 30 years ago and it’s still hot in the summer. It’s the typical hot season right now, and the valley appears to be only slightly above season average temperatures today, and coastal LA seeks be slightly cooler than average. Apparently it will be unseasonably cool in a couple days.

acwan93 a day ago | parent | next [-]

You’re correct that LA is usually hot (95F+) this time of year, but the humidity is what’s abnormal. The dew point in Disneyland was higher than in Disney World yesterday due to a tropical storm that dissipated west of the LA basin.

More tropical storms are approaching LA and that’s increasing humidity is why it’s sweltering.

megnaro a day ago | parent | next [-]

A separate LA Times article explained that the humidity is due to lingering effects of a recent hurricane/tropical storm.

"Forecasters attributed the punishing humidity to the remnants of Tropical Storm Iselle moving over the state, as well as unusually warm ocean temperatures due to a combination of a months-long marine heat wave, a powerful El Niño and climate change.

"Dew points in the Los Angeles Basin have been “really high,” hovering around 70 degrees in many places, with a few coastal areas like Redondo Beach and Torrance reaching a dew point of 73 to 75 on Friday, said Ryan Kittell, meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Oxnard. The metric measures the moisture content in the air."

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2026-08-28/forget-f...

amluto 12 hours ago | parent [-]

The sea surface temperature anomaly is indeed pretty high right now near the Los Angeles and San Diego coast.

Noaidi a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Exactly! What a strange about what’s going on in the LA basin right now is the extremely high humidity for this time of year. A 69° dewpoint is unheard of in this region. And this is what’s associated with the El Niño and associated with climate change.

pier25 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Climate change is a fact. You can’t believe in a fact.

tayo42 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I haven't paid much attention to la lately.is this true? San Diego is having an unusually hot and humid summer. Water temperatures are nearly tropical right now too

WarmWash a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The right thinks it's a hoax and the left thinks it's on corporations (not themselves) to fix it.

To put it plainly, everyone wants the problem to go away without having to change anything about their lifestyle.

wk_end a day ago | parent | next [-]

“Both-sides”ing this is ridiculous. Certain leftists might sometimes disproportionally blame corporations for the issue rhetorically but they aren’t broadly opposed to the kinds of taxes and regulations - on corporations or individuals - that would be needed to bring carbon emissions down.

If you insist on finding a way to criticize leftists on the climate file, a much better tack would be pointing out how some environmentalists have opposed nuclear power or densification.

WarmWash 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The next two replys are people telling me it's corporations...

Maybe 10ish years ago the left was all on board with individual action, but now it has heavily shifted to "I can drive my SUV because it's on Big Oil to fix the climate"

pvaldes 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> some environmentalists have opposed nuclear power

At some point we finally will need to admit that they were not fools for saying that.

Fresh water is vanishing. Nuclear plants need water (and absence of arsonists) to not go out of control. They will need ten years (or most) to be built. At this point the place may be in the way to be flooded by the sea, or in the way to became a desert. Can a new nuclear plant return their investment if they will be operative only for ten years more before to turn into a rusty reef?. Probably not.

Had we spent this pile of money into renewables, we would be in a much better position.

tzs a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For most individuals there is no lifestyle change they can make that will matter. Fixing it requires collective action.

The way individuals can meaningfully contribute is by supporting politicians that will make policies and rules and regulations the meaningfully encourage that collective action, and when they have a choice between more than one corporation for some product or service that are not too different as far as impact on the lifestyle goes choosing the one that is better from a climate change point of view.

The politicians and the corporations (encouraged by incentives and regulations by the politicians) can then bring about changes that will make it so the lifestyle changes for individuals that help with climate change also improve the individual's situations so people voluntarily make them in large numbers.

For example there are a lot of people in the US who would be better off if their next car was an EV except the public charging infrastructure isn't good enough for their needs. Build a lot more public chargers that support 800V cars and many of these people will pick an EV. This is something government can bring about.

For an average individual it is perfectly fine, to use a sports analogy, to play the game as it is now while supporting league wide changes to the rules to make it a better game in the future.

chneu 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> For most individuals there is no lifestyle change they can make that will matter. Fixing it requires collective action.

Sorry but this is absolute nonsense.

What we eat matters. A huge amount of what people eat is unnecessarily excessive in terms of resources required to create it. Beef and dairy, most meat, are good examples of this.

An individual can reduce their contribution to climate change by up to 30% by simply forgoing meat and dairy. That percentage obviously varies quite a lot, but it can be huge.

Add in that food waste is a huge problem and this makes more sense.

tzs 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> An individual can reduce their contribution to climate change by up to 30% by simply forgoing meat and dairy

So they go from their contribution to climate change being completely insignificant to it being 70% of completely insignificant.

If I dropped all meat and dairy it would reduce the world's annual emissions by 0.0000000026% (if we are optimists [1]).

This level of reduction only matters is a very large number of other people do it too, and getting that to happen requires a lot of top down effort.

[1] Realistically cows are produced in integer amounts. My foregoing burgers and steaks would not reduce the number of cows. At most have a minuscule affect on prices too low to be detected. Same for other meats and dairy.

iLemming 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> everyone wants the problem to go away

And we do feel hopeless and helpless. And the only thing we can do is to promote and advocate for science. It was a scientist who made us stop adding lead to gasoline. It was because of scientists we were able to stop ozone layer destruction. It was a scientist who invented the catalytic converter. It was a scientist who broke the asbestos industry's decades of denial and a scientist who broke big tobacco.

We didn't have to "change our lifestyle" - scientists proved bad things happening and politicians listened. The current imbalance in the political system is that the right simply just wants to ignore the science. And even half the country shitting their souls out in explosive diarrhea won't change it. Therefore the right have no right to representation, because the survival of our species is at stake. We need to vote them out.

orwin a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> and the left thinks it's on corporations (not themselves)

Of course... Every year where the consequences weren't in sight, saying we should consume less, buy less, eat less meat, I have been called 'degrowther' and it has been explained to me that I would increase human suffering because it would reduce the economy size. Ok, fair, I just wanted to help future human, but if you don't plan to have any, you do you.

Now I'm told I think it's corporations that should fix it. Of course.

By the way, I still think it's consumerism (and consumption capitalism) the reason we can't deal with the issue. That corporations are the biggest voice that push for this system is incidental, but yes, breaking big corps in smaller entities would probably help solve the problem. A bit too late now, but better than never.

Also, who on the left think that corpos will do anything to help humanity? Really? I think at most, some thinks it's the government to do everything but corpo? Really? Your friends on the left seems to me very, very much in the center, center right to be exact.

reenorap a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sf Bay Area didn’t have a single day above 100 this year. Not counting Livermore etc. it’s the first time in a long time I can remember the entire summer being so nice and relatively cool.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
tito a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Come join our El Niño session on Wednesday with Stripe's climate scientist Zeke Hausfather: https://luma.com/tu0uvbx1

We'll talk climate science, impacts, and what we can do to avert the worst impacts of the worst El Niño in human history.

taneq a day ago | parent [-]

It’s a thing you can avert? Or do you mean one in the far future which we might avert by reducing carbon emissions now?

defrost a day ago | parent | next [-]

They appear (I skimmed) to be investing in all any feasible ideas to capture CO2 from the air - this is a good thing.

The numbers are daunting and the returns are scant, but the effort is one that should be made.

The upside is I saw little sign of Gorgan LNG style Carbon Capture; where a massive source of CO2 greenwashes releasing 100 units of CO2 by stuffing 1 unit back in the hole it came from.

dylan604 a day ago | parent [-]

For every ton of CO2 pulled from the air is another ton that something else will emit. Once the emitting is lowered, pulling it out of the air might have a chance

sobkas a day ago | parent | next [-]

CO2 capture produces more green house gases than it captures

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/24/shell-ccs-facility-in-canada...

defrost a day ago | parent [-]

That's more of the "Gorgan LNG style Carbon Capture" I noted above - that's "capture" in the sense of releasing massive amounts of CO2 to the atmosphere while extracting massive amounts of natural gas .. but "making up for it" by not letting quite all of it escape and pushing a bit back.

Dubious accounting trick at best .. not even working as it was sold on the box in practice.

Atmospheric CO2 already floating about appears to be what the air-mining crowd are targeting (albeit small scale so far).

defrost a day ago | parent | prev [-]

The strategy is to walk and chew gum.

tito a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Whoops, my bad. Edited. We can avert the worst impacts of the worst El Nino in human history.

scythe a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Renewable energy is expanding faster than ever. And it's hard for people to look at that and think we're moving too slowly. But we still are. That's the basic cultural disconnect.

When nuclear power became a thing in the seventies, there was massive planning around a presumed nuclear-powered future. The largest energy storage facilities in the US were all built around that time. This turned out to be a mirage as the cost of nuclear went up with the safety expectations of the electorate, while petrochemical prices dropped. But this time it's not prices we're predicting, it's temperature, which is much more reliable.

wolvoleo a day ago | parent [-]

Nuclear has a lot of environmental impact too. You need to mine a lot of earth to get a little uranium, and a lot of that activity is very polluting and a lot of that activity is not climate neutral. Then you have the waste problem that's not figured out, proliferation etc.

We can't go cherrypicking environmental problems. That way we roll from one crisis into the next. There's so many issues we're causing, like entire ecosystems going extinct. Sooner or later that will lead to crises too. We have to stop externalising.

And yes the electorate wants to be safe and for good reason. Even Fukushima polluted a lot. It's not just about death tolls.

grebc a day ago | parent | next [-]

Modern lithium batteries or solar panels for that matter don’t get magiced out of nothing.

Those materials are mined also. At least forethought is given to handling/disposal for nuclear since it’s a known issue.

wolvoleo 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Well yes but lithium is easily recycled and solar panels are made from sand and nowhere near rare earth.

See how the soviets destroyed half the Czech countryside looking for Uranium for their bombs and power plants: https://www.rferl.org/a/soviet-uranium-mines-explored-abando...

Uranium mining is a dirty business and if we're going to be needing a lot more of it due to expansion of nuclear and leaving the mining to the lowest bidder it will be very polluting.

grebc 9 hours ago | parent [-]

I think it’s pretty questionable to suggest it’s easy to recycle, hence the mining of the material isn’t of consequence.

And if we’re just being offhanded then apparently thorium is a replacement for uranium, or there’s the ability to reprocess used fuel again for nuclear power.

Mawr 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you're just gonna be replacing entire orders of magnitudes of difference with the word "too", then everything "has a lot of environmental impact too".

> We can't go cherrypicking environmental problems.

Huh? Local pollution with solid waste vs dispersing that waste into the global atmosphere is the same to you?

> Even Fukushima polluted a lot. It's not just about death tolls.

Right, 20_000 deaths from the tsunami is no big deal, the pollution is!

Since you're ignoring any and all statistics wholesale, I hope you never fly — 9/11 was terrible after all, so aviation is clearly unsafe.

scythe a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you missed the point of the nuclear tangent. The point was that people might be reluctant to build out energy storage capacity before demand appears because of what happened last time. The difference is that climate change is more predictable than the economy.

wolvoleo 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Well demand is pretty much a given now with AI, so I think either way this is not an issue. We will want all the power we can generate.

Noaidi a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My best advice is not to approach people with numbers and figures and all the danger, start with saying you’re concerned about the future. It’s kind of an open ended conversation starter.

The big problem is this is all driven by consumption and it’s hard for people to cut back on consumption. I don’t know how to explain to people how a simple life is much easier than the complicated life of the rich and famous they see every day on the Internet.

I don’t think there is an answer for this, I think there’s way too much propaganda on the other side of the equation. My only hope from this El Niño is that it creates such damage and disaster that it starts waking people up. I think if it affects the ranchers and farmers that will be a big plus because they are usually on the side of not believing in climate change.

What I do right now is just keep talking to people and preparing, but I’m lucky since I live in a minivan full-time. I mean, I can drive anywhere. The weather suits me.

dyzone a day ago | parent [-]

> but I’m lucky since I live in a minivan full-time.

Tell us more

Noaidi 15 hours ago | parent [-]

What do you want to know> I am homeless and have a serious mental illness. Hope you were not expecting a happy story...

chadgpt3 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The time for prevention has passed. The course has been set. Now Darwin rules the day - we'll see which species survive. We chose this.

xyzelement a day ago | parent [-]

// Now Darwin rules the day

How many children do you have?

mdgrech23 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I'll go against the grain but our capitalist way of life is totally incompatible with solving climate change. Likewise one country can't solve this problem alone. You need the whole world on board. I truly think the only real solution is a one world government truly working toward for the betterment of the planet and it's occupants. We all know that ain't ever gonna happen though so we're hosed.

switchbak a day ago | parent | next [-]

Hey I grew up super environmental and I have plenty of hippie cred, but this statement gave me shudders "the only real solution is a one world government". Yeesh, yeah a single government, surely nothing could go wrong.

polotics a day ago | parent | next [-]

The Savior fallacy. With power more concentrated, the ability to avoid being impacted for those in power rises and rises and rises. How are incentives then aligned? I'm sure that having 10 million governments would be much better than having one to solve the issue.

tapoxi a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean we're staring at apocalypse here so it's not like the alternative is any better.

switchbak 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We're always staring at the apocalypse though. It is really worse than during the Cuban missile crisis?

Also: you can justify just about anything by inspiring panic. I'm not buying it.

jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev [-]

It can ALWAYS get worse.

Gigachad a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems we are no more capable of organizing than bacteria in a petri dish could avoid replicating until the resources are exhausted.

tito a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've had this thought too. And when I think about it in the big picture way, I don't think it doesn't need to be all that hard to solve. It's not like we're talking about like, you know, some huge slice of GDP or something. Yes, the price of fossil fuels effectively doubles. But we can create lots of jobs to make solar and nuclear and all these other solutions in the meantime.

An economy that seizes climate solutions can zoom ahead in terms of innovation, manufacturing, and enforcement. The changing climate is one of the biggest economic opportunities we've ever seen in human history, but somehow we've convinced ourselves that it's not only the worst non-opportunity ever but somehow would break capitalism. The richest man on the planet makes electric cars.

jimbokun a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Let me guess, you think it’s somehow impossible that people like Trump and Musk would end up running this One World Government like Trey have done in the US because…reasons.

dylan604 a day ago | parent [-]

The rest of the world would have to accept a Trump and Musk leadership. That seems like a really big ask

macintux a day ago | parent [-]

China accepts a dictator. Russia accepts a dictator. India accepts a nationalist demagogue.

dylan604 a day ago | parent [-]

Are they led by Trump and Musk though? You've misinterpreted the meaning of the question. I didn't ask what countries would accept being led by a national demagogue. Also, would other countries accept being led by the leader of the countries you listed?