| ▲ | christophilus 7 hours ago |
| I don’t see anything, but I also wonder if this is semantics, and we are all describing the same phenomena with different language. |
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| ▲ | Al-Khwarizmi 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Yeah, I think I have aphantasia as I definitely don't see anything, but after reading a lot about it I still haven't totally ruled out that it's simply a big semantic misunderstanding with people that describe things in a different way. All the easily accessible aphantasia tests (such as the one in this link) seem to rely on subjectively deciding whether you "see" or not. But this "seeing" seems to be a metaphor (even people who claim to be non-aphantasiacs will concede that it's not literally like seeing), so how do I know that other people aren't having essentially the same internal experience but choosing different words to describe it? It also doesn't help that it doesn't seem to have any bearing on cognitive ability, or ability to perform tasks that one could effectively measure. I have never felt like I can't do something because I have aphantasia. I have seen people mentioning difficulty on problems where you need to mentally rotate a cube, but I can do that just fine - it's just that I don't "see" or "picture" the cube, but I still have the concept in my mind of the cube being in a certain orientation and that suffices to solve the task. I have read that there are some tests for aphantasia that don't ultimately depend on introspection and vocabulary (e.g. pupils reacting to imagining something bright or dark, see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35356890/) but I haven't found anything that I can do at home to be sure that I'm really aphantasiac and not just pessimistic about describing "inner images". If anyone knows such a test that one can do at home, I would be very interested. |
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| ▲ | slibhb 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is what I used to think. That "aphantasia" was just people arguing semantics about subjective experience. But my belief now is that if you think this way, you likely have aphantasia (I think I do). A couple things that convinced me that the phenomenon is probably real: 1. I can visualize when I dream, or when I'm dozing/napping. But I can't while awake 2. I can "visualize" sounds, so I can hear a sound/song in my head and it's pretty much like actually hearing it. But I can't do this for imagery Admittedly, neither of those is a smoking gun and I'd also be interested in a more objective test. | | |
| ▲ | vidarh 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is my experience too. I have aphantasia for all intents and purposes but I have had one single experience years ago during meditation where I suddenly experienced "being in" a scene that was vivid and clear that I knew to not be real. It's nothing like when I "imagine" something and don't see anything. It was also nothing like when I dream, where I too can visualise - it was much clearer. It's clear to me that most of the time when people question that this is possible, it's an indicator they have aphantasia. |
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| ▲ | card_zero 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Those tests could also depend on some third thing, such as not believing that you're visualizing a bright light. I can't see their methodology. "Here, we show that the imagery pupillary light response correlates with objective measures of sensory imagery strength." Really, objective measures of how bright an imaginary light is, how on earth do they think they can measure that!? Was it like "we gave them a sheet of paper where they had to score how bright a light they were imagining, and the sheet of paper objectively existed so it was an objective test"? Well anyway the whole concept, and the science, seems like a giant troll. | |
| ▲ | inigyou 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's like a low-quality offscreen framebuffer, and if you can see things in a dream, it's like that. | | |
| ▲ | drakonka 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | In a dream I actually am fully immersed and can see the entire world as if it was real. In a normal dream I assume the dream is the real world, and in a lucid dream it is vivid enough to feel, look, and sound like a real physical experience though I know it's not. But in a dream there is no real visual still being processed to compete with the dream visual, so surely it can't be exactly the same? If it's really like dreaming then TIL I may have aphantasia.. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | In a dream I think I can see a whole world, but I actually can't. Upon closer inspection, only the relevant characteristics of the thing I'm "looking" at are actually "rendered" or "simulated", and the rest is filled in by a vague feeling of "yeah yeah trust me bro there's a world there" It's basically like AI Minecraft. You know, that project where someone trained a stable diffusion model to predict the next video frame based on the previous frame and the player inputs. Then people started speedrunning it, like by looking down into a lava pool and back up, now they're in the Nether (underground lava dimension). That's how I think dreams are, except you don't even get a full video frame, just one object of focus. | | |
| ▲ | drakonka 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | That makes sense and there are some philosophical questions about whether our own world may be rendered similarly to a video game - do the things not within our senses actually render? Or do they only 'load in' when we observe them? For me the real surprise is the fidelity of the visual I _do_ get. Sounds, sight, and touch feel just like real life (in lucid dreams especially now that I think of it). If the quality of our waking visualization is really meant to be the same as it is in our dreams, for me it is nowhere close. |
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| ▲ | dyauspitr 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I have seen people mentioning difficulty on problems where you need to mentally rotate a cube, but I can do that just fine - it's just that I don't "see" or "picture" the cube, but I still have the concept in my mind of the cube being in a certain orientation and that suffices to solve the task. As someone with probably some form of aphantasia, a cube is fine because it’s a simple shape with well defined simple mathematical rules that is easy to abstract and rotate. It gets more complicated with complex objects and that’s where visualizing things really matters. Here’s a question, can you accurately visualize a loved one’s face, see it in your mind and describe all the features if you were for instance talking to a police sketch artist. I couldn’t even do that for my daughter or my wife. | | |
| ▲ | Al-Khwarizmi 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I definitely can't - if I had to describe my wife or son, I would be hard pressed to go beyond very generic descriptors (long black hair, brown eyes, and so on), nothing useful to create an accurate sketch. And I wouldn't be able to draw them from memory even if I were good at drawing. This could also be explained simply by having bad memory for faces, though. But yes, little bits of subjective introspective evidence (like that one, and also mostly ignoring visual descriptions in books, and the perception of having no mental images at all that is asked by the standard self-report tests, and so on) add up and make me 99.9% sure I have aphantasia. It's just that it would be nice to have the objective unambiguous external test, the silver bullet, to be totally sure that they're not a bunch of busses in a trench coat as so many honest beliefs are. |
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| ▲ | sixothree 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think this is a better self-test. Visualize a ball on a table. Now imagine someone walks up to the table, and gives the ball a push. What happens to the ball? Now, answer these questions: - What color was the ball? - What gender was the person that pushed the ball? - What did they look like? - What size is the ball? Like a marble, or a baseball, or a basketball, or something else? - What about the table, what shape was it? What is it made of? And now the important question: Did you already know, or did you have to choose a color/gender/size, etc. after being asked these questions? | | |
| ▲ | drakonka 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This is an interesting one and I just tried it. I could answer all the questions about the ball, but none about the person or the table other than them existing in a hand-wavy sense. But rather than informing any level of aphantasia, it seems more likely that I simply did not prioritize visualizing those other things past their rough properties, focusing instead on the ball. | | |
| ▲ | Jtsummers 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > it seems more likely that I simply did not prioritize visualizing those other things past their rough properties, focusing instead on the ball. Right. Details come in, for me, based on: - Familiarity with the subject. "Imagine your sibling playing ping pong". I can get a vivid image of my sister, the table, the movement of the ball during a game. - Letting my mind wander, daydreaming style. More details will fill in as I imagine the scene for a longer period of time. - Prompting. Once prompted to think about the person, details were added but the previous image (just a generic person and generic table) did not lead me to imagine anyone in particular or any details that could suggest a gender or other specifics. And I don't know why anyone would expect differently. Not all imagined things are vividly imagined even if you possess the ability to do so, that shouldn't be a surprise. |
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| ▲ | LordGrey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You might need to take a person's background into account as well. I, for instance, am an avid billiards player. A "ball on a table" naturally makes me think of a billiard ball on a billiards table. A whole host of detail was filled in for me, but all specifically in that context. I could answer some of the answers as if I could visualize, but most of them as someone who could not. n = 1, I know, but sometimes it takes only one example. | | |
| ▲ | idoubtit 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Same here. I immediately visualized one of my juggling balls (the hard kind, pastel blue) on my kitchen table, so the scene was clear. But I was focused on the ball, so I only felt someone approaching and saw their hand pushing the ball, which rolled and fell. I tried to visualise a scene with more unfamiliar objects (a box in the street then a flood wave arrives) and I also built the scene from my own memories. But I'm obviously biased after the first test. With objects that I've never seen myself (e.g. a handgun), I have a hard time imagining them and placing them in my imaginary scenes. |
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| ▲ | davidsojevic 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I could answer "the ball probably rolls off the table" and to everything else; I had no answer and would have to choose after the fact if pushed for an answer. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | But say you're overexcited and drunk, maybe then you think about all these extraneous matters, for fun and because you're not focused on the main question, and then you do have answers. | | |
| ▲ | cassianoleal 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah so you probably have between what TFA describes as hypophantasia and phantasia. |
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| ▲ | card_zero 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's a test of how interested you are in random people, or indeed in visualizing things at all when not actually necessary. |
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| ▲ | D-Machine 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Then you are almost certainly aphantasic. "It is all just semantics" has to do some incredible acrobatics to make sense of so much language and reported experiences, and doesn't seem biologically plausible either. Of course, we can never be sure, but from a theoretical and empirical standpoint "all aphantasia discussion is just semantic confusion" is not useful and a complete non-starter. |
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| ▲ | vehemenz 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I have doubts about aphantasia as a legitimate phenomenon, but whether it is or it isn't, it seems likely that many of the positive reports are a result of a misunderstanding, semantic or otherwise. | | |
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| ▲ | andy99 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’ve see no evidence it’s anything but this. I have no idea if I have it or not or just describe stuff differently. I think this is logically much more likely. It’s a “what does it feel like to be conscious?” or “is my red your red” kind of question. There’s no external benchmark, no way to objectively compare, so you just get a spectrum of reports about the same thing. |
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| ▲ | edgyquant 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sometimes I think so, I don’t visually see anything in my mind it’s all just thoughts about things like I can feel the image but can’t actually see it. However I have taken psilocybin mushrooms and when I do I can literally visualize things in my mind as crystal clear as I can see the real world. So I think it isn’t just semantics |
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| ▲ | _dwt 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm very convinced this is what's going on. Qualia are super hard to convey with language! If I had to guess these self-reported instruments are also measuring, indirectly, conscientiousness (do I _really_ see it? it'd be wrong to lie on a survey!) as well as neuroticism (oh God what does that mean? do I _really_ see it? do other people _really_ see it? am I broken?). |
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| ▲ | D-Machine 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I think a couple of the comments in this very thread above, e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49467695 and https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slibhb are quite relevant to your case. Thinking this is just semantics is a strong indicator you are likely highly aphantasic. It is highly unlikely to just be semantics, because when it comes to visualizing complex objects as a non-aphantasic, the specific details spring forth unbidden as an image first, and then you attach the language, and it isn't the reverse order. I suspect also tests of visual memory of complex pictures should reveal similar things here, because e.g. language and other things don't really seem to be able to represent such details, and neurobiologically, there isn't much plausible other way your brain could be memorizing a complex photo without retaining / having activation patterns similar to the actual viewing (and this is what we see in fMRI studies). If you are careful at noticing your thoughts (and not aphantasic), you can also notice if you are a highly visual thinker, you might sometimes confuse certain memories of things (spellings, place names, other things) that are similar only visually, but not logically or in any other sense modality representation. This would suggest the representations are genuinely visual in these cases. But yes, no way to be 100% certain, but the "it is just semantics" case is very weak and can't explain much. | | |
| ▲ | _dwt 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am reasonably confident I am not aphantasiac in the sense described here. My apple is red with some nice green mottling, dust, etc etc. I can see my wife and children in detail in my "mind's eye". As a child people told me I had a "photographic memory", which I also think is sort of "fake" or semantic, but nonetheless: I can remember images I have seen with visual detail and I can imagine hypothetical objects "visually". I still think many self-diagnosed aphantasiacs are tripping on the semantics of wording in a self-report survey, because I could easily talk myself into the other label based on second-and-third-guessing "but what does it mean to _see_ something I'm imagining?" etc. If there is a group of people with an actual quantifiable brain difference, I suspect it is much smaller than the group of "all self-diagnosed aphantasiacs". | | |
| ▲ | D-Machine 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, you don't sound aphantasic to me then either. I am certain you are right some self-diagnosed aphantasics are caught up in semantics: psychology instruments in general are quite terrible, and certainly anyone that just does some self-report test and reads no further I could very easily see becoming confused here. But the more a person thinks and read about it, especially given how much easier it is to find people writing and talking about it today, then I think the likelihood of being caught in such a semantic trap will go down a lot. Or at least, that should happen so long as one doesn't attach excessive moral value to or get bogged down in "identifying" as aphantasic/not. |
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| ▲ | 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | jtbayly 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s very hard to prove, yes. But you need to deal with the association with SDAM, and the differences in outcomes on the https://aphantasia.com/study/vviq. | |
| ▲ | Noaidi 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is Qualia only until they can measure it. Which they can now. Blaming everything you do not understand on neuroticism? Might as well go back to dunking witches. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2022/04/220420092150.h... | | |
| ▲ | _dwt 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not really sure what the hostility is about. That's an interesting study albeit small: 42 non-aphantasiacs and 18 self-diagnosed phantasiacs. If one really wanted to quibble I'm sure there are other possible confounding variables which could be involved in both pupil dilation and self-reported aphantasia. I'm not "blaming" neuroticism, I'm pointing out that these self-reporting surveys are subjective in a way that can be influenced by personality traits. |
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| ▲ | drakonka 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have been wondering this as well. I took part in a study at the local university that seemed related to visualization ability. Aside from various questionnaires about imagining different types of objects, they had me do a test on a PC where I had to look at moving shapes for a few seconds at a time. The shapes would then disappear and I'd have to click on it when it reappeared in a new position a few seconds later. You were meant to be able to predict the location based on the shape's trajectory and could react faster that way. I doubt it was trying to identify aphantasia though, since that seems like a task you could do well in even without being able to visualize the shape. |
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| ▲ | mucha 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Aphantasia and hyperphantasia can be measured.
See section 6 here: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11437436/ |
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| ▲ | ajkjk 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'm sure it's not, because most of the time I'm aphantasic and rarely I'm not and they're completely different phenomenological experiences. |
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| ▲ | fellowniusmonk 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I developed full aphantasia at 16 after being put under for a heart procedure. My minds eye was somewhat diminished after a procedure at 11 when they put me in a twilight instead of fully under. I have a sister younger who is 6 years younger, we used to play imaginary games all the time, few years ago she asked why we just stopped playing games and it was because I couldn't see the characters anymore. I eventually recovered like, idk, a faint outline of my parents faces from before the surgery that I can kind of conjur. It's not semantics. |
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| ▲ | quickthrowman 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Yeah, I’m convinced this is the case. Accurately conveying something like that (the qualia of mental imagery) to another person using words is more or less impossible, in my opinion. People like to label themselves and feel special, this is an easy way to do it. |