| ▲ | rayiner a day ago |
| It’s not “cruelty” to have and enforce rules. The words “temporary” and “nonimmigrant” is plastered all over the laws that govern these visas. People shouldn’t have treated them as permanent immigration visas. And employers shouldn’t have mislead employees into thinking these were permanent immigration visas. It’s like saying that it’s “cruelty” to remove someone who uses a 2 hour parking spot as their permanent car parking. |
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| ▲ | earthdeity a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Rules are well and good, but norms are important too.
An immigration system governs people making major life choices, and companies making large investments. Legally, there's very little the state can't do, there could be a bill passed tomorrow revoking all immigrant visas. But businesses, and by proxy the nation, benefit from work done by these workers. Sudden unilateral moves like this are stupid on a social level (cause damage to businesses and communities), and on a moral level. "First do no harm" is a principle just as suited to government as medicine. Even if there is a broad consensus for reducing or eliminating H1B visas, why punish people who followed the system as it exists and contributed? It's perfectly possible to pass a bill, stop handing out new visas, and sunset renewals after some 1-2 year timeframe. It's legal to invite a bunch of guests over and kick them all out after you open the wine, but you're going to lose friends. And ultimately it will be businesses and individuals paying the cost for these needlessly volatile course changes. Tourism and high skilled immigration rates will face lasting harm. |
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| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | > Rules are well and good, but norms are important too Not when the norm is open defiance of the rules for decades. > An immigration system governs people making major life choices, and companies making large investments. And it also governs the right of people to decide who they want to invite into their country and, ultimately, with whom they want to share democratic governance of their home. Those are important stakes, not to be minimized. But you neglected to mention them. | | |
| ▲ | earthdeity a day ago | parent [-] | | Defiance of the rules? What rules exactly? The law does make clear that H1-Bs are temporary workers. But it's also permitted to renew, and workers are allowed to pursue immigrant status. In fact, until 1990 there was specific language saying that H1-B's (like all visitor visas) are not supposed to want to stay, they must maintain a foreign residence "which he has no intention of abandoning". This language was struck and the visas became, and still are, the most common defacto "seeking green card" status for workers seeking to move the US. To be clear, while a person who enters the US on an H1-B is a temporary worker, they are not prohibited from also seeking a permanent status. So it's fully within the rules, which is why it becomes a question of norms. In the present, the H1-B is (was?) the most popular route to permanent immigration to the US besides family sponsorship. I specifically said that the government (and the citizenry by extension) can decide who it wants to enter and stay, how much immigration, whatever. But changing the rules suddenly, upending peoples lives who have not broken any rules, through a pathway the US state itself freely established, is immoral and short sighted. It should go without saying that there are experts across many fields in industry that any country would benefit from attracting. The US is harming its capacity to attract and keep that talent with these ridiculous theatrics. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | > This language was struck and the visas became, and still are, the most common defacto "seeking green card" status for workers seeking to move the US. Incorrect. H1B still requires non-immigrant intent. The only thing that was struck was requiring the government to presume non-immigrant intent automatically upon some filing for permanent residency. That was not intended to change the system into a de facto permanent residency pipeline. | | |
| ▲ | bubblethink a day ago | parent [-] | | You are arguing semantics and peculiar archaic ones at that. It is not prohibited. It is permitted. In fact it is so common that Congress had to pass AC21 to mitigate the damage caused by indefinite backlogs in the H-1B->GC pipeline. A majority of employment based greencards are issued to people in the US through adjustment of status. The purpose of the system is what it does. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | > You are arguing semantics Yeah, law is about semantics. And semantics reflects underlying politics. Immigration proponents never had the political capital to enact a law that actually reflects current practice. | | |
| ▲ | bubblethink 19 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I just told you that AC21 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Competitiveness_in_th...), which is appropriately named, is a recent law that reflects current practice. | |
| ▲ | mrguyorama 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Immigration proponents never had the political capital to enact a law that actually reflects current practice. Reagan, in 1986, signed a bill that legalized any illegal immigrant who came here before 1982 and 3 million people applied, of which 2.7 million were granted. This was a bipartisan bill. Democrats and Republicans worked together to do that. This was literally the bill that established the requirement that an employer cannot "knowingly" hire an illegal immigrant. There was zero enforcement from day one. Because the bill was pushed by agriculture groups. Reagan said, "The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans." Go ahead and tell me recent democrat immigration policy, under "Obama the deporter in Chief, was somehow more lax than that. Than literally legalizing 3 million people with the stroke of a pen and a smile and doing nothing at all to actually implement the disincentives that would prevent future immigration. Reagan signed a law that made it illegal for hospitals to deny emergency care based on immigration status. The nation did not have any immigration law at all until after the civil war. Then we banned all chinese laborers for 30 years. What's funny, is that Reagan's amnesty happened after* Mexican immigration had gotten federal attention as a serious problem and we ran "Operation Wetback". That program is somewhat of an analogue to what Trump and ICE are doing right now, including the part about deporting legal citizens. Operation wetback was pushed for, again, by agricultural interests. |
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| ▲ | baby_souffle a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It’s like saying that it’s “cruelty” to remove someone who uses a 2 hour parking spot as their permanent car parking. That's a very weak analogy for the moral issue here. The consequences are radically different; losing a parking space is a minor inconvenience; losing immigration status can/does involve relocation and upends employment, family, property, and years of life planning / general stability. |
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| ▲ | 15155 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | hvb2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | No, people are following the rules and politely asking for a renewal in a different country. The issue here is that they're not being denied, the government is basically refusing to make a decision for an indefinite amount of time. I'm assuming most normal cases will get their visas eventually, the question is when. In the meantime the applicant can pay rent in the US, find some place to live abroad and maybe continue working from overseas? All so the state department can retrain a few people? | | |
| ▲ | account42 a day ago | parent [-] | | They are being denied. That's the default state when your visa expires and you have not been granted a new one. What the government is doing is telling people to not bother asking right now because everyone will be denied. | | |
| ▲ | hvb2 a day ago | parent [-] | | That is not what's happening here. They're not making decisions. No one is being denied as a result of this. Also, there are many cases in which a visa can expire and you're still allowed to be in the US and even work. As long as the reason why you got one is still there (there's a legal term for this but IANAL). It's just that when you leave you cannot come back without getting a new one. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | baby_souffle a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The moral issue is the same in both cases: there’s a big sign that says “temporary.” People have chosen to ignore the sign. No. Your analogy works well solely for the concept of temporary authorization. If you're offering up 2h parking as proof that the moral stakes are equivalent... | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The moral issue is defined by the nature of the rule, not the stakes for someone who has transgressed. Enforcing the rule doesn’t become less legitimate just because someone has invested more in breaking it. | | |
| ▲ | hvb2 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Enforcing the rule doesn’t become less legitimate just because someone has invested more in breaking it. Nobody broke any rules here. These are the people folowwing the rules for the legal immigration system. You just want to break the law as it stands today and not have an immigration system at all. That's a view you can hold and just as valid as any other. Just stop talking about people breaking rules, that's not what this is about, this has nothing to do with illegal immigration. | |
| ▲ | debatem1 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why is that how the moral issue is defined? Seems to me the moral issue is the stakes, and I have no idea why I would cede that judgement to you. What's your basis for claiming moral authority? If you don't, please show your homework: what strange anticonsequentialism underlies your claims, and why should I agree with it? | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Consequentialism in general is a third-world mindset. But in this particular context it leads to the absurd result that someone who breaks the rules more egregiously is rewarded for doing so. | | |
| ▲ | debatem1 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Those sure are words. Can you relate them to the question in some way? | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | In first world countries, we focus on rules over consequences. If you build a dwelling on my property, the rule doesn't reward you for making a house rather than a tent. The moral analysis is based on the nature of the rule, not the consequences to those who break the rule. | | |
| ▲ | debatem1 a day ago | parent [-] | | Hogwash. You're trying to slide from claiming moral high ground to pointing at rules, as though the American lexicon didn't have whole classes of words denoting the "virtuous rulebreaker" (maverick, renegade, etc). And, do you think all the rules you live under have moral weight? What if those rules changed, as they did here-- would you still think that? Not to mention that it's still incorrect even if you're just pointing at the rules themselves-- the entire concept of standing to sue requires that you were harmed (ie, suffered consequences) to engage the courts in the first place. On the other side, results are the difference between attempted homicide and homicide. |
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| ▲ | TimorousBestie a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Consequentialism in general is a third-world mindset. Ah, this must be why so many utilitarian philosophers are European and American. |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | jeremyjh a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which rules are being broken? It seems to me it is the State department that has suddenly and capriciously begun violating immigration law, rather than processing Visa applications according to the laws of this country. Is it because this administration knows it could never hope to pass a law this terrible? |
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| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The principle is the same; the magnitude is different. I don't see why adjusting the magnitude should affect the principle. | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF a day ago | parent [-] | | Then you don't see why stealing $10 is a misdemeanor and stealing $1000 is a felony (depending on jurisdiction, but whatever you get the point). Not saying you should see why, just that many clearly do for it to be public policy. But it makes me wonder: do you think the $10 theft should be punished more heavily (minimum 1 year in prison), or the $1000 theft punished more lightly (maximum 1 year in prison)? | | |
| ▲ | 0xDEAFBEAD a day ago | parent [-] | | >you don't see why stealing $10 is a misdemeanor and stealing $1000 is a felony (depending on jurisdiction, but whatever you get the point). A shift in magnitude follows a shift in magnitude, as expected. | | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | I see what you're saying but it strikes me as naive to suggest that a felony and misdemeanor are different merely in magnitude. I suppose that was my mistake given my initial examples. In practical terms, one is a means of voter disenfranchisement, among many other life complications like "failing" employer and landlord background checks. One thing being a felony and the other being a misdemeanor can be seen as a difference in magnitude and as a difference in kind, and I was talking about the latter. |
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| ▲ | brookst a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do you think the moral issue is the same if someone fails to hold a door for you, or if they shoot you? It’s rude either way, right? I don’t have words for it, but the US has been infected with some kind of hybrid reductionism / nihilism where people think that vicious bad behavior can be enjoyed and justified, even righteously glorified, if a disingenuous analogy can somehow be crafted to something banal and comparatively harmless. Nobody actually believes it, but it’s become a game of sorts. I don’t like it. | | |
| ▲ | baublet a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Thank the pseudo intellectual billionaire patron club masquerading as serious thinkers. | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | wasabi991011 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This entire article is about immigrant visas. |
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| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | No it’s about B-1 and B-2 visas: > The State Department and Department of Homeland Security are reviewing all B-1 business and B-2 tourist visas, he said. https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary... (“B-1 Temporary Business Visitor”) | | |
| ▲ | f30e3dfed1c9 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The very first sentence of the article begins "The Trump administration has paused processing of immigrant visas..." | |
| ▲ | abduhl a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are we reading different articles? The headline says immigrant visas. The first paragraph says immigrant visas. “The Trump administration has paused processing of immigrant visas, which allow recipients to move permanently to the U.S., to train visa officers on new guidance ensuring that applicants have enough financial means to support themselves after they arrive.” | |
| ▲ | nielsbot a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Suspicious given the xenophobic nationalist government the US has in place. "But we're just following the rules!" innocent look | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | American immigration laws are designed to have a small stream of permanent immigration, both to protect american jobs and to protect american culture from foreign influence. That’s what people voted for over decades. The New York Times did a good podcast on the issue. https://youtu.be/xgDdTV7A57w. If you want to define “xenophobic” to encompass that then that’s your choice. I don't think that's a sensible or useful definition. The concept of "xenophobia" only applies to individuals. It's wrong to assume that somebody will be a certain way because of their nationality. That obviously doesn't translate to immigration, which involves the mass movement of people who do have a distinct culture in the aggregate, and do transplant their culture into the U.S.: https://www.sup.org/books/economics-and-finance/culture-tran... | | |
| ▲ | lanstin a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I know a lot of people that support these cruel and chaotic changes to our immigration laws and they are mostly xenophobic - they don’t like people speaking languages other than English at the store, they don’t like religions different than their own, they don’t like family traditions different than their own. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Xenophobia is about assuming that people are different because of their national origin. It's not "xenophobia" if there are actual differences, especially if there are actual changes to someone's society. Treating all cultural differences as equally desirable is cultural relativism. Not everyone who rejects cultural relativism is xenophobic. You're allowed to prefer your own culture and to live in a society that reflects your culture. The countries that most immigrants come from treat that principle as axiomatic. | | |
| ▲ | TimorousBestie a day ago | parent [-] | | You’ve successfully mangled the definition of xenophobia. “A strong aversion, antipathy, or fear of foreigners.” Simple as. It wouldn’t be wrong if you admitted that you want some degree of xenophobia. But I suppose that sounds even less convincing than your preferred abuse of terminology. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > “A strong aversion, antipathy, or fear of foreigners.” Yes, it's antipathy to foreigners in and of themselves. It's antipathy based on the mere fact that someone is a foreigner by stereotyping them based on nationality. Antipathy based on actual cultural differences. | | |
| ▲ | account42 a day ago | parent [-] | | I think the confusion of "no one should be persecuted for being part of group X" with "no one part of group X should be persecuted" is the root of far left ideology. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Denial of immigration isn't "persecution." | |
| ▲ | nobody9999 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >I think the confusion of "no one should be persecuted for being part of group X" with "no one part of group X should be persecuted" is the root of far left ideology. I think that no one should be persecuted[0]. Persecution is unfair harassment/injury/punishment. Perhaps you meant prosecuted[1] instead? [0] from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecute Persecute: transitive verb 1
: to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict
specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief 2
: to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (such as attacks, pleas, or importunities) : pester [1] from https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prosecute Prosecute: transitive verb 3
: to bring legal action against for redress or punishment of a crime or violation of law
b
: to institute legal proceedings with reference to
prosecute a claim | | |
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| ▲ | hollerith a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are 47% of naturalized immigrants into the US themselves xenophobic according to your definition because that how many voted for Trump in 2024? | | |
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| ▲ | baublet a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Indeed; ask them why they want to pause immigration and see how difficult it is for them to choke back the 14 words they can’t say in public. | |
| ▲ | assemblyman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This might seem like an academic point but the support of all xenophobic people for these changes doesn't imply that some non-xenophobes don't support these changes (or ones in the same spirit) as well. I don't know what the relative numbers are, but the support of a negative group for a cause doesn't invalidate the cause. US immigration can be very slow and bureaucratic (even pre-Trump). I hesitate to say but generally, it's not as arbitrary as people think. If things are clearly above board, it works out. The US still is a destination in very high-demand. There are a huge number of qualified and unqualified people, who would come here in a heartbeat (and it goes without saying, there are a huge number of people who have no interest in moving here).There are clearly agents like the H-1B body shops who have exploited the system. Similarly, masters programs were launched effectively to trade full tuition for an opportunity to enter the US labor market (e.g. all the masters in financial math programs). This doesn't mean we don't get amazing people on H-1Bs or in masters programs but these pathways have been exploited. Many people desire a sane immigration policy and experience. One that allows promising candidates into the country. The exact definition of a "promising candidate" was outsourced to universities and companies sponsoring these visas. A lot of people have lost trust in those institutions. I don't know what a good solution is but the rise of these policies is a symptom that the current system is not working. | | |
| ▲ | rayiner a day ago | parent [-] | | > This might seem like an academic point but the support of all xenophobic people for these changes doesn't imply that some non-xenophobes don't support these changes (or ones in the same spirit) as well. Americans aren't "xenophobic." I just got back from two weeks in rural Texas and everyone was super nice to me. Nobody was "afraid" that I'm a foreigner. They just don't want me to bring my entire extended family over and in numbers that changes the culture of their home. And people in my dad's village in Bangladesh would hate if some other group did the same thing to them. People throwing around “phobia” and “ism” is just a way to obscure what they really mean, which is cultural relativism and erasure of the distinction between citizens and foreigners. | | |
| ▲ | assemblyman a day ago | parent [-] | | Of course no one reasonable would paint a huge population with a brush like that. I am pushing back on the narrative in this thread because many non-immigrants in this country infer the experience of an immigrant (like you, I am an immigrant and spent an inordinately long time before eventually naturalizing) from news. Are there powerful people in the government who might have these tendencies? Of course, it's possible! But, like you, my personal experience (which probably also doesn't apply to everyone) even in rural parts has been very positive. At the same time, it is reasonable for people to point out the unpredictability of the system. Going to get a visa renewal and getting stuck for several months is unpredictable. Having to make plans at the last-minute is stressful. One can take the stance that the America doesn't owe anything to a non-citizen and, while I lean towards a similar stance, some of the arbitrariness is unreasonable. | | |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | nielsbot 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | i’m saying the current administration’s anti-immigration efforts are white nationalist and christian nationalist and I oppose it. it’s a eminently reasonable take given their backgrounds. > protect american culture from foreign influence what culture? what foreign influence(s)? i posit foreign influence is what makes the US better and always has. |
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| ▲ | mrguyorama 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >It’s not “cruelty” to have and enforce rules. Depends on the rules. "You have no rights and are someone else's property" was once a rule, and it was absolutely cruel. |
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