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jimbo808 2 days ago

Hire Americans?

Hundreds of thousands of tech workers have been laid off in the last two years. There are many skilled Americans on the job market. Foreign workers are here for the benefit of the United States, not as charity to the rest of the world, or as a source of cheaper labor for global employers seeking to undercut American wages.

2 days ago | parent | next [-]
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selcuka 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Foreign workers are here for the benefit of the United States

But that's the point, isn't it? Some foreign workers who "worked the US for the benefit of the US" are now unable to come back to the US. Isn't that bad for the US too?

486sx33 2 days ago | parent [-]

Not until all Americans who can work have jobs

ElProlactin a day ago | parent | next [-]

And what do you do about the people who only want to work in jobs that they're not qualified for, and who have unrealistic expectations about pay, benefits, work demands, etc.?

Is every natural-born American entitled to a job that pays what they want, for the hours they want, in the location they want, regardless of their qualifications for the job?

RAMJAC 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I was homeless for 6 months, and wanted nothing else except for a job that can pay for basics. I still don't have dental, can't save any money, but I have a room with a lock. I worked from 5pm till 4:30 in the morning from covid until a year ago with zero benefits!

Will I ever be able to retire, doubtful. Have a family, probably not. Are these personal failings I need to take responsibility for, absolutely. Still my expectations are very low and my earnings and lifestyle reflect this.

Where do you want me to move? What job do you want me to take? What more do you want to take from me? Do I deserve less, more, just enough? Why do I have to listen to you about that?

You have _no_ clue what you are talking about.

sandmn a day ago | parent | prev [-]

But isn't that how market supposed to work? Company offers to pay x for the job, can't find anyone for x, so it raises salary to x+y.

I would understand logic of bringing people from other countries when there is a shortage of workers but with current market it doesn't seem to be the case.

ElProlactin a day ago | parent | next [-]

> Company offers to pay x for the job, can't find anyone for x, so it raises salary to x+y.

In the world you're imagining, is x+y potentially infinite?

g3f32r 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Is there a job you wouldn't do for potentially infinite dollars? Can you assert that to be true for hundreds of millions of Americans?

SmirkingRevenge a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Migrants don't really depress wages, except by a very marginal amount at the lowest skilled rung.

That's because adding people to the economy creates more demand

In times of recession, things might be different - but immigration tends to take care of itself in that regard. When a country has unfilled labor demand, immigration goes up. When it has no labor demand, immigration goes down.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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totetsu a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you propose to restrict the international flow of capital too while you're at it? Until every spare US dollar is invested in the US? or you just want to restrict the market for the 99% of people whose biggest asset is their labor.

MisterMower a day ago | parent [-]

Dollars and people are not the same thing. I’m not sure how you can even make the claim that they could be or even should be.

totetsu a day ago | parent [-]

Thats the amazing part of a diverse society, there is a variety of opinions and world views that you can come across that that might even be completely outside your current understanding. As by being curious and trying to understand something surprising you might just gain a new and deeper understanding of the world.

MisterMower a day ago | parent [-]

Most folks don’t want their minds opened to new and surprising views and opinions. They want a good job in the town they grew up in so they can take care of their family and raise their kids in the culture they were raised in.

Globalism has ruined that entirely, and there’s no amount of implying these people are closed minded or incurious that will make them change their mind on this issue.

krapp a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But America is a capitalist system. The market has determined that not all Americans deserve jobs. Are Americans willing to work a 996 schedule for 2.00/hr to compete with labor overseas?

vachina a day ago | parent | next [-]

If your business cannot survive paying more than slave labor rate, then a capitalist system dictates that your business should cease to exist or your resources allocated to more productive work.

krapp a day ago | parent [-]

Capitalism is what capitalists do. No capitalist system dictates that, because that no capitalist system practices that. Wages don't increase with productivity anymore, the gap between the two has only increased since the 1970s.

Capitalists come out of the woodwork to denounce things like the minimum wage or unions that distort the fair market value of labor because they want to pay as little as possible and not a cent more. Why do you think automation and outsourcing exist to begin with? Why are we putting Manhattan Project scale effort into AI? Wages are an inefficiency in the market that capitalism has always sought to ruthlessly optimize away.

stale2002 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Nothing in capitalism prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens.

And it is uncontroversial in most countries that a country should do this.

So this isn't a contradiction. Indeed america is capitalist. And it is also prioritizing its own citizens. There is nothing weird about that.

krapp a day ago | parent [-]

Most capitalist countries have 100% employment for their citizens and little to no immigration? No. "Every citizen who can work having a job" is not something capitalist countries do. They all take ample advantage of foreign labor, they all have corporations that prioritize their own profits and outsource.

stale2002 a day ago | parent [-]

> Most capitalist countries have 100% employment for their citizens and little to no immigration

You must have responded to the wrong post as it has nothing to do with my statement.

That statement is that there is nothing about capitalism that prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens. That is a perfectly normal and rational thing to do.

Additionally, the exact percentages of unemployement rates also has little to do with capitalism, nor does the uncommonness of fully achieving a lofty but possibly valuable goal also has nothing to do with what capitalism is, nor does it say very much about how valuable that goal is or the value in attempting to aspirationally achieve it.

krapp a day ago | parent [-]

>You must have responded to the wrong post as it has nothing to do with my statement.

OK. You can't handle context, noted.

>That statement is that there is nothing about capitalism that prevents a country from prioritizing its own citizens.

The free market is what prevents it. The purpose of capitalism is the creation of capital and its transfer to the capitalist class, and the purpose of corporations is to maximize profits to facilitate that process as quickly and efficiently as possible. Neither capitalism as a system nor corporations have an obligation to improve quality of life for their employees beyond their market value, or to "prioritize" the social welfare over profit, or to hire more people than they need.

It's simple supply and demand and there isn't a demand for American labor.

>Additionally, the exact percentages of unemployement rates also has little to do with capitalism

which is weird because you're arguing that capitalist companies need to prioritize "citizen" labor in order to reduce unemployment, or that governments need to force them to.

stale2002 19 hours ago | parent [-]

> Neither capitalism as a system nor corporations have an obligation to improve quality of life for their employees beyond their market value

If by capitalism as a system, we are refering to countries that are capitalists, it seems fairly uncontroversial to say that such countries can prioritize their own citizens.

It is not weird or controversial to say that countries, even capitalist ones, prioritize their citizens in certain cases, nor is it weird to suggest that they aught do so.

> which is weird because you're arguing that capitalist companies need to prioritize "citizen" labor in order to reduce unemployment, or that governments need to force them to.

I am suggesting that it is compatible with being a capitalist country, and is not weird, unusually, or bad to do such a common thing as prioritizing your own citizens.

I wouldn't say that they need to. Merely that it is a normal and compatible, and in many cases desirable goal for said citizens.

Synthetic7346 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Capitalism is at odds with protectionism. Putting citizens above profits doesn't seem like a very capitalist thing to do. Not arguing against it, I'm all for socialism

stale2002 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> Putting citizens above profits doesn't seem like a very capitalist thing to do

Do you... think that people who are pro capitalism believe that their own ideology is harmful? Obviously proponents of a belief think that their ideas and philosophy help their own citizens.

> I'm all for socialism

Thats only because you have definitionally defined socialism as "When you do things that are good", not realizing that other people think that their ideas are also good.

The reason why people support capitalism is specifically because they think it is a good idea and benefits a country, and its citizens.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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doug_durham 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's clear you are not a hiring manager. There aren't thousands of highly qualified engineers looking for work. I can't tell if this a troll post or not.

jimbo808 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

It's clear you are not considering the long-term effects of labor policy. If we want a stronger domestic workforce, the answer is to incentivize Americans to develop the skills we need and to train them when they do not already have those skills. Mass importing foreign labor is not a substitute for building and investing in the domestic workforce.

maest 2 days ago | parent [-]

Btw, this is analogous to the argument for positive discrimination:

Preferentially treat one group of people (non-white/women/Americans) even if in the short term the revealed preference of businesses is to hire a different group of people (white/men/immigrants), such that, in the long term, the first group of people can develop the necessary skills to compete with the second group.

Short term pain for long term gain.

BobbyJo a day ago | parent | next [-]

The arguments can be the same but have entirely different hidden variables that make it fine to use the argument in one context and not the other.

Also, this ignores that the government works for citizens, no matter their race. Promoting racial equality among citizens is a function that the government might undertake. Pursuing policies that favor citizens over non-citizens falls in line with that same reasoning.

consensus1 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

No it's really not the same because we have laws against racial discrimination, but it is the entire purpose of the state to represent the interests of its citizens above all others.

binarymax 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, there are thousands of qualified engineers looking for work.

2 days ago | parent | next [-]
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mixmastamyk a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Millions depending on how you cut it.

lokar a day ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s a big industry. There are many roles at many different levels of expertise and experience.

Many can’t find locals.

15155 a day ago | parent [-]

> Many can’t find locals.

*for the price they want to pay.

lokar a day ago | parent [-]

You can’t get them to apply. They are already very well paid. It’s a finite pool that is not large enough. Bidding up pay won’t change that. Instead you just hire overseas.

15155 a day ago | parent [-]

Paying more will inherently mean that people cross-train to reap the financial rewards.

lokar a day ago | parent [-]

They already pay mid 6 to low 7 figures. The people who can and are willing have already moved over.

Rumudiez a day ago | parent [-]

Care to share with rest of the class what the role is, then?

lokar 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Principal and distinguished engineers, some Sr staff.

Rumudiez 17 hours ago | parent [-]

working with what tech? you didn't answer the question to a reasonable extent. it seems odd you need to hire people into principal and "distinguished" titles, you should be promoting from senior/staff to fill those internally. unicorn hunting is an organizational problem, not a useful reflection of the hiring market

lokar 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Most people who make it to staff will not ever be qualified to sr staff, then the same for each next level.

All of the big tech companies I’ve worked for were founded by immigrants, and had many key immigrants in early Sr positions building the company.

a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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999900000999 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m very pro immigration, but “Americans are lazy and stupid , thus unfit for hiring” isn’t a winning argument.

Tons of Americans are out of work. I’ve personally seen my wages drop by at least 20$ an hour as well as the work being less stable.

Gasp, you might need to train someone a bit or have employees that will say no if you ask them to work on Christmas.

If I ran the H1B program it would be an unrestricted work permit with an automatic pathway to a GC after 5 years. Don’t get *convicted* of a felony and here you go.

g3f32r 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> If I ran the H1B program it would be an unrestricted work permit with an automatic pathway to a GC after 5 years. Don’t get convicted of a felony and here you go.

Why would this policy be beneficial to Americans?

999900000999 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

H1Bs create new companies here, we continue to attract the smartest people here.

However each company would have to weigh the risks of bringing someone to the US and they then walking away.

We could even change it so instead of a 100k fee, you have to invest 200k in US bonds which only mature after 5 years. Of course even if it doesn’t work out you still get your money back.

Synthetic7346 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It benefits American entrepreneurs - they could hire from a diverse pool of people instead of waiting for local talent pools to develop?

Not everyone is capable of building FAANG levels of talent pipelines to convert interns into eventual staff eng

logicchains 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They would be looking for work with you if you were offering them better pay and conditions than where they're currently working.

whatever1 2 days ago | parent [-]

Money does not fix the supply problem the parent comment pointed out (at least for fields that need multi year training).

Let’s say that tomorrow we need 1M nuclear physicists. How can money help? You still need to wait for the talent pipeline to divert.

throwaway85825 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Fortunately such ridiculous hypotheticals have no correspondence to reality. Most every job can be easily trained or cross trained. Mathematicians make good physicists. Nor is there some foreign pipeline of a million physicists. Such ridiculous argument exist only to perpetuate the lie of a skills shortage and deny the wage shortage.

whatever1 a day ago | parent | next [-]

We don’t need my hypotheticals.

We saw how well the American bootcamps filled the market with completely trash talent when the market demanded a big number of SDEs.

So no, money cannot generate infinite specialized talent overnight as you naively assume.

doc_ick a day ago | parent | prev [-]

They may make good physicists, but not great physicists. Similar to saying I know how to drive a car, now let me win the inde 500. Things take to for specialization, even with the advent of guessing and checking machines (llms).

throwaway85825 a day ago | parent | next [-]

A shocking number of innovations in x field are because y person brought an idea that maps from z field. Cross functional teams are important and mathematicians can and absolutely do make top level contributions to physics.

One of the math problems recently publicized as having being solved by was actually just discovering that a German mathematician had published a solution in the 1950s.

doc_ick a day ago | parent [-]

Oh that is true, and I’m not putting down cross functional teams. I’m just putting down the idea that a specialist in one area can immediately be a specialist in another semi related area with no extra review time.

throwaway85825 20 hours ago | parent [-]

If you ask specialists about their backgrounds you will find that they took different paths. The critical step is time in the speciality, not background. For any job there's never a pool of applicants who are pretrained for that exact job, everyone takes time to get up to speed. People from related fields do just as well learning job tasks. The labor market is fluid if properly incentivized. Commenters intentionally pretend not to understand because they want cheap labor and want to impoverish the American worker.

doc_ick 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Commenter doesn’t seem to understand how much of a drift there is for specialty learning or different negative patterns specialists may have. A front end architect and a computer architect may have similar backgrounds, but a computer architect will take wildly longer to learn front end and likely have some practices to un-learn. Also I would say for certain areas, people are pre-trained for the exact job as the tools or tech between is the exact same. It’s not just commenters who want cheaper labor, capitalism wants cheaper labor.

throwaway85825 19 hours ago | parent [-]

A lot of employers would have slaves if they were allowed, doesnt mean that the workers shouldn't do everything possible to prevent this and politically demand better conditions. Such as the case in the topic of the thread.

doc_ick 19 hours ago | parent [-]

I would agree employers would likely want that, though since in the us it’s difficult for labor unions to ever be created let alone extra protections or the necessity of tips or us at-will hire/fire.

My point of your thread was disagreement with the immediate transfer of knowledge: “Most every job can be easily trained or cross trained.”

I disagree with most jobs can easily be trained or cross trained, there is more of a time sync between that.

throwaway85825 18 hours ago | parent [-]

The national government functions as a labor union through its control of the border and regulating the conditions of employment.

>I disagree with most jobs can easily be trained or cross trained

People just overestimate how complicated their job is because it makes them feel important. If anything immigrants take longer to get up to speed which is why companies usually only hire them when its cheaper. Or nepotism.

doc_ick 11 hours ago | parent [-]

“The national government functions as a labor union through its control of the border and regulating the conditions of employment.” Woah for some reason it sounds like you’re talking about a European country, not the US where the legal age to work changes every few hundred miles. 1

“People just overestimate how complicated their job is because it makes them feel important.” I do hate to say but I also really doubt this anecdote for majority of workers. Wasn’t there a ford factory that laid off workers in favor of llm (that were trained to replace them) only then to be rehired? 2

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/03/09/child-lab... 2. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2026/jun/30/ai-backfi...

mixmastamyk a day ago | parent | prev [-]

With training (remember that?) and practice, one could vastly improve. It’s called a growth mindset.

doc_ick a day ago | parent [-]

You know what training takes? Time

*you know what practice takes? Time

mixmastamyk a day ago | parent [-]

That’s fine.

doc_ick a day ago | parent [-]

So we’re in agreement? A mathematician can’t immediately be or replace a good physicist, it takes some certain time to transition.

mixmastamyk a day ago | parent [-]

It’s an investment.

doc_ick 20 hours ago | parent [-]

So we’re in agreement? The time of investment for growth is the point of decision, and how long it takes to train specialists defines if it’s worth it.

I.e. how long would it take to train a regular driver to drive the inde 500 vs buying a racers contract

mixmastamyk 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Want me to agree that training takes time? Ok, but what a boring revelation. It doesn’t take much time in the grand scheme of things. I can read a substantial book each week, for example. Give a person a half ~salary and let them study and train for a month +/-, they’ll be ready to contribute.

Synthetic7346 11 hours ago | parent [-]

What if I need someone to do the job right now? And there are such candidates available? Should I still hire an under qualified citizen?

mixmastamyk 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Good thing you planned ahead and trained a person last month, so they're able to start today.

People in the recent past were not so short-sighted.

doc_ick 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Good thing every single requirement is known in advance. It’d be a shame if things changed faster then a snail, limitations we’re fully understood, and the geopolitical situation doesn’t change by a tweet.

Edit: actually, what job do you have in mind that never changes? Honestly it sounds relaxing

carlosjobim 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Why are they needed in the USA, but not needed in their home country?

soniczentropy 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They ARE needed in their home country, that's why they're here. The fact is simply that the best way to help their family is to make American money

carlosjobim 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Good to hear that their home country doesn't need any engineers, doctors or other specialists.

Then it makes sense that they go to help the USA develop to that same level.

A nuclear engineer surely improves his country much more by sending home some money to his mommy and aunts than by building a new power plant.

Synthetic7346 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I can't tell if this is a troll post or intentionally obtuse. The comment they you replied to did say that these are the best in their country, which is why we want them. Have you heard of a concept called brain drain?

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, I have heard of brain drain. And people here are arguing in favour of brain drain rather than hiring citizens or paying citizens better, because they say that US needs these foreign workers. That's why I ask how it comes that their own countries do not need them?

Why should anybody be sympathetic to the so called "needs" of US companies hiring immigrants, but not be sympathetic to the needs of their home countries?

Sympathy for companies is usually conditioned on the fact that they give jobs to locals, or at least to citizens. If they're not doing that, then who gives a fuck if they aren't able to expand or profit at a rate that shareholders prefer?

But there is a class of people - most hackers included - who have had such comfortable lives that they aren't capable to even pretend anymore to sympathize with the producing class.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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zdragnar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Really? Last time I was involved in hiring, about two years ago, we had hundreds of applications in a day or so. What changed?

tayo42 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hiring is such a shit show, there's no reason to assume the people doing the hiring know what they're doing. Like HR has to insert them selves into the process

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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