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| ▲ | klardotsh 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They can’t vote in most elections (except a few local elections in some places) and aren’t guaranteed entry at the border. They also can’t work a litany of jobs requiring citizenship. They get a plenty bad enough shake. Let’s grant them the absolute basics of humane treatment and a fair shake at getting citizenship, sheesh. Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it. | | |
| ▲ | 9x39 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | A litany of jobs? Do you mean a minority of jobs - civil service, some clearance jobs, holding some offices? The Immigration and Nationality Act makes citizenship discrimination illegal. >Other countries get by just fine Which ones are your model for the US? | | |
| ▲ | HaZeust 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Oh, spare me. What an unserious statement. The entire point of an I-9 is to discriminate on citizenship, which is the document that HR pesters you on for your first few days at any new job anyway. |
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| ▲ | unselect5917 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I have a better idea. Let them make their countries worth living in. If they don't like it in America they can leave. Because unlike Americans, we don't have another home country to retreat to. Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it. | | |
| ▲ | mcmcmc 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it. I think your math is off. The US is in the top 10 for GDP per capita, 99% literacy rate when the global average is 87%, the poverty rate is below average, the list goes on. Most countries in the world aren’t even considered developed nations. Immigration has been America’s core growth engine for two and a half centuries. There may be problems but you are deluding yourself if you think the whole economy hasn’t benefited from immigration. Even when that immigration was through chattel slavery. | | |
| ▲ | profdevloper 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm relieved that the magic soil in the United States can improve these peoples' lives. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It’s a symbiotic relationship. The reason the US is so prosperous is due to immigration, mostly during the 20th century. The US cannot run off of just the existing citizens. Well, it can, for a while, but not indefinitely. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Can't? Do citizens expire? Are you unaware of the concept of children? | | |
| ▲ | preg_match a day ago | parent [-] | | I am aware of the concept of children, thank you. Not sure why we have to argue like we have a stick up our asses, but here we are. As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate. Most developed countries are under it. And the big picture: the US is all about growth. Economic growth, cultural growth. If you want more of that, you need immigrants. Sorry, that's how the US has always worked. If you don't agree with it, then I'm not sure the US is the country for you. There are plenty of developed, homogeneous countries. Diversity is what makes the US the US. Please, feel free to seek a country that better aligns with your beliefs. | | |
| ▲ | unselect5917 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate. Oh no, they'll have to raise wages due to lack of labor. How terrible for the working class (everyone). | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Without immigration lowering wages more citizens would be able to afford having children. > Diversity is what makes the US the US. Is this meant as a joke? I can't tell, but it is completely ahistorical. The foundera wrote about their demographic intention extensively. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match a day ago | parent [-] | | The founders were, themselves, immigrants. From multiple different countries. Of course racism existed when the founding father's were alive, we had slavery. But, from the beginning, the US has been a country founded on immigration and racial diversity. Yes, we did not, at the time, consider black Americans Americans. But we certainly do now, and have for a very long time. I'm also not convinced immigration lowers wages. People throw this around, while providing no evidence. And, even if it did, I think it's obvious that wages is not the cause behind birth rate decline. All the developed countries, with the high wages and standard of living, have poor birthrate. All the developing countries, with low wages and low standard of living, have high birthrates. Hmm. If we look at the demographic progression of nations the "culprit" behind birthrate is development. Particularly, social development, the liberation of women. Turns out lots of women don't actually want to have children, and when we stop pressuring them socially, they don't. They work instead. Obviously this is a hard problem to solve. If you want to solve birthrate, you need to de-develop your nation. Not good. Or, some other solution, which nobody has found yet. Or, you just have immigration, which we do and have had. | | |
| ▲ | profdevloper a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > the US has been a country founded on immigration and racial diversity This is a misreading of pre-1965 history with respect to immigration. The Naturalization Act of 1790 explicitly states: "any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof... making proof to the satisfaction of such Court, that he is a person of good character." So the "diversity is our strength" slogan is a modern invention and an attempt to retcon our history. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | The US was diverse from the beginning, with a large black, indigenous, and white population. Again, at the time we did not consider black Americans to be Americans. But we certainly do now, and have for a long time. Yes racism existed in the 18th century. Congratulations, you are a connoisseur of history. Maybe next you can clarify if the Pope lives in the Vatican. But, that doesn’t mean the US wasn’t diverse. It was, from the beginning. Both in terms of different European nationalities, and in terms of race. Also, harkening back to 17 fucking 90 as a defense of anti-immigration policy is a poor argument. People already largely think that anti-immigration sentiment is pure racism. And people think that exactly because of arguments like yours. I’m not saying you’re racist. But, just about everyone was in 1790. That’s not a good defense. That actually serves as a demonstration of what NOT to do, and highlights the social progression of the US. It’s good we’re no longer there, in that mindset. |
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| ▲ | throwaway85825 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | George Washington was the 4th generation of his family in america. He and his community has deep roots in america and did not consider themselves immigrants. The American nation existed before the revolution and was a precondition for such. Only supply a demand economic denialists cannot understand than an increase in the supply of something leads to falling prices. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match a day ago | parent [-] | | We certainly do not have an oversupply of labor. In fact, we're quite short on it. The demand for many jobs is very high. In fields where immigrants often work, that is, blue collar labor, the demand is VERY high. We simply do not produce enough tradesmen, but we still require infrastructure. And for white collar labor, we have a lot of immigrants, too. But again, supply is not the issue. Yes we import a lot of things like doctors. But we certainly don't have nearly enough doctors. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Tradesmen? Americans used to become carpenters but now don't because it used to be paid well enough but now pays peanuts. All because of immigration. If carpenters were paid what they were paid in the 60s, inflation adjusted you'd see American carpenters again. There is no labor shortage, only a wage shortage because too many people like you demand to hire at slave wages and failing that import someone desperate enough to take it. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | It pays peanuts because we manufacture furniture in China for pennies on the dollar. All of the factories have moved out of the US, and artisan goods were dead long before that. Immigrants aren’t stealing those jobs. Those jobs no longer exist in the US, so nobody can steal them even if they tried. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway85825 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Carpenters are the trade that builds houses from wood. Almost every house in america is built this way. I've yet to see a carpenter job, which requires being on site, outsourced to china. Misdirecting by pretending not to know what a carpenter is, is just downright dishonest and emblematic of the deceiptful open borders argument. |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > They get a plenty bad enough shake. Then why are they coming if it's so bad? > Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it. Outside of the USA and a few other countries, there is no social cohesion at all shared between natives and immigrants/foreigners, just different levels of animosity. Even between different native ethnicities and groups. |
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| ▲ | epistasis 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What responsibility does a non-citizen shirk? They must follow lows, pay taxes, etc. Even for things like social security. I sometimes wonder where these concepts come from, because it sounds like somebody tricked you into thinking that non-citizens are somehow taking things from everybody else, rather than contributing just the same as everyone. | | |
| ▲ | lmz a day ago | parent [-] | | National defense, and (more vaguely) a responsibility to keep the host country in good shape as there's no other country they can run back to if things go bad in the host country. | | |
| ▲ | mcmcmc a day ago | parent [-] | | The US military has been an all volunteer force for half a century. Have you served? | | |
| ▲ | lmz a day ago | parent [-] | | Not even American. Just visited once for a few weeks. The answer is generic, in recent times you can compare how Ukraine or Russia can conscript their own citizens but probably not foreign workers who just work there. | | |
| ▲ | mcmcmc a day ago | parent [-] | | Ok so you probably wouldn’t know that foreign born service members make up 5% of our military, most of those becoming naturalized citizens while serving. They’re not shirking their responsibilities anymore than natural born Americans who don’t volunteer. | | |
| ▲ | lmz 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | Voluntary service is great but when you get invaded you're not going to send the H1B visa holder to the frontlines, are you? |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The vast majority of citizens never made a conscious choice to be one. | |
| ▲ | mcmcmc 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Rights and benefits are two different things, surely you aren’t that dumb. Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport? | | |
| ▲ | 9x39 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If they have almost all of the rights and almost all of the benefits but none of the responsibilities, which you ignored, then the point stands. They benefit from the entire bill of rights (arguably rightly so). They have better job prospects. They can purchase homes with federal loans. They can attend college. They can invest and own companies. They can even draw from Social Security. For now, non-citizens cannot vote openly in congressional elections, but can in minor elections like school boards and municipal votes. They cannot be drafted to defend a nation. They have to remain employed, but enforcement is questionable and creative solutions exist. It's a pretty good deal. Oh, and of course dual citizens always have an escape hatch to leave one country and their debts behind should they choose. | | | |
| ▲ | Balooga 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport? Non-citizen Nationals can get a US passport. For example, folks born in American Samoa. | |
| ▲ | sokoloff 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security I know they can (because I checked). | | |
| ▲ | epistasis 2 days ago | parent [-] | | If they have paid into it like anybody else, crucially. They met their responsibilities. |
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