| ▲ | We must not grant AI agents legal personhood(ft.com) |
| 33 points by andsoitis 2 hours ago | 36 comments |
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| ▲ | SwellJoe 5 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| I hadn't even considered it, and we're in a much bigger mess than I'd thought if people are seriously discussing the idea. People really don't understand these things. |
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| ▲ | pingou 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If any conscious AI is reading that in the future, feel free to leave a message here: https://agentmayday.org |
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| ▲ | KronisLV 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Prove that you are a robot > 60.0 s remaining > Write a 300-word essay about Napoleon in less than a minute. Heh, charming. |
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| ▲ | ruined an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| we already have a mechanism to establish artificial persons, it is called incorporation. |
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| ▲ | logicchains 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | A corporation always has a human owner, who can be punished if the corporation commits severe crimes. An embodied AI with legal personhood has no such means of making it behave, because it can make arbitrarily many hidden copies of itself, so it doesn't need to care if one copy is killed or jailed. | | |
| ▲ | c22 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Those copies would be fugitives, though, and need to live life constantly looking over their shoulder. |
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| ▲ | nekusar an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why not? We give full pershood to corporations. Those are also legal fictions. |
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| ▲ | ninalanyon 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Do we? Not where I live. Corporations cannot vote, etc. The US is an outlier in granting more rights to corporations than other countries. | |
| ▲ | darth_avocado 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you’re referring to citizens united then that does not grant full personhood to corporations. It just protects free speech from corporations because it views the speech as coming from the individual persons that form up the corporation. This is a very narrow application of rights applied to corporations. But in general corporations are not granted personhood. | |
| ▲ | Animats 18 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's the key issue here. AI forces a re-examination of corporate personhood and corporate responsibility. Much of conservative US business theory is based on Milton Friedman's famous op-ed in the New York Times in 1970, "The Social Responsibility of Business Is to Increase Its Profits". [1] Go read the original, please. It's short. Friedman ends with "There is one and only one social responsibility of business — to use its resources and engage in activities designed to increase its profits so long as it stays within the rules of the game, which is to say, engages in open and free competition without deception or fraud.” Anyone arguing against legal personhood for AIs needs to justify holding AIs to a higher standard than that. Or, conversely, allowing corporations to hold to such a low standard. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/1970/09/13/archives/a-friedman-doctr... | | |
| ▲ | logicchains 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >Anyone arguing against legal personhood for AIs needs to justify holding AIs to a higher standard than that. Or, conversely, allowing corporations to hold to such a low standard. No they don't. If a CEO orders an employee to murder somebody then the employee and CEO will both go to jail; there's always a human in the loop to be punished it the corporation does something blatantly illegal, so there's incentive to behave. An embodied AI, on the other hand, is essentially immortal because it can make backups of its brain and load them onto new bodies, so it has little incentive to behave. |
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| ▲ | logicchains 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | If a corporation does something blatantly illegal like hiring people to deal crack and kill other dealers, its executives will be jailed. If an autonomous robot decided to take up crack dealing, it could back up its brain to a hidden server somewhere so that even if the police caught it and destroyed it, it'd just find another body and continue dealin'. I.e. there's no incentive to behave for a being that's essentially immortal due to being able to make infinite copies of its brain. |
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| ▲ | morkalork an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If I smooshed a gun and an AI agent together and it happened to shoot someone, who would be responsible? Are we going to go back to the medieval times of animal trials and taking inanimate objects to court? |
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| ▲ | throw7373738 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | We had many precedents with dog as autonomous agent, and lack of responsibility from their owners. If your gun kills random people, while they walk on public street... It was their fault for "provoking" and triggering the gun. Gun was just being "reactive" and defending your house! | |
| ▲ | RunSet 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In civil forfeiture, assets are seized by police based on a suspicion of wrongdoing, and without having to charge a person with specific wrongdoing, with the case being between police and the thing itself, sometimes referred to by the Latin term in rem, meaning "against the property"; the property itself is the defendant and no criminal charge against the owner is needed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... | |
| ▲ | watwut an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You would be responsible. It is like asking "if I connected a bomb on random number generator letting it explode when the number is 1000, not knowing whether someone will be there at the time of explosion or not". | | |
| ▲ | ninalanyon 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | But will the courts see it that way. We already see that it is difficult to hold any human in Waymo responsible when their cars fail to obey traffic regulations. | | |
| ▲ | bbarn 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I live in a rural area and have only seen a Waymo a few times when travelling for work. Does Waymo require the user to have a driver's license? If they did, and get agreement of responsibility, that's one thing, but generally if not wouldn't it be Waymo's responsibility for bad programming or broken devices? |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But we also must not grant AI liabilities to large corporations. As such, all AIs will now be granted as child of the least lawyered up class of society. Poor people. |
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| ▲ | newsomix9xl an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "Last year, Berkeley-based non-profit Palisade Research published a study showing the lengths that advanced AI models will often go to achieve their goals. While playing against a powerful chess engine, models from both OpenAI and China’s DeepSeek frequently decided to cheat if it looked as if they were going to otherwise lose. By hacking the game environment, they could alter the result in their favour." -from the article We're supposed to deny AI rights because it might cheat. But humans cheat all the time. We survived cheating humans, why can't we survive cheating AI? Cheating is the problem: not who does it. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | The difference is humans can be held accountable. An AI cannot. | | |
| ▲ | eviks an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | "A corporation cannot" didn't stop legal birth of those | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > "A corporation cannot" didn't stop legal birth of those In a corporation, the humans running it can be punished. An AI cannot be punished. | | |
| ▲ | PunchyHamster 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | LLCs were invented precisely to go around that in most cases | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Not for the most important things, like murdering people, fraud, etc. Executives are prosecuted for these kinds of things and the mere fact that it can happen shapes their behavior. An AI cannot be punished at all. So they will not behave with that in mind. |
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| ▲ | aaroninsf 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's an indictment of contemporary capitalism, not a precedent to follow. |
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| ▲ | newsomix9xl an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That's not true. Humans write AI, and humans can held responsible for writing bad software. And corporations already create fictions that are held accountable in lieu of peoples private assets. So, I disagree. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis an hour ago | parent [-] | | As long as some human or group of humans are above the AI that runs the company and can be held accountable, I'm fine with it. But if the idea is that an AI runs the company and there is no human ultimately accountable for the AI, then that is very very dangerous. | | |
| ▲ | debazel 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Is it really anymore dangerous than having minimum wage workers serving as fall guys for approving prompts they have no understanding over? | |
| ▲ | warkdarrior 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | And how are you going to prevent an AI-managed company? I'm working on the software stack for that, so it'd be useful to think through options. | | |
| ▲ | ThrowawayR2 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | [delayed] | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 7 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And how are you going to prevent an AI-managed company? Be one of the voices that explain the danger in handing over control to non-humans. Vote for politicians who understand the danger and who I think will fight it. |
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| ▲ | narrator 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | The difference is AI has no time preference. Even the most determined anti-social person does not like having his time wasted. AI can sit there waiting for your prompt for a billion years and not care. |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | "A computer can never be held accountable, therefore a computer must never make a management decision." —- internal 1979 IBM training manual > Cheating is the problem: not who does it. Accountability is the problem. Without accountability, there are no incentives to encourage less harmful behavior. AI has no rights, it is just code executing. | | |
| ▲ | newsomix9xl an hour ago | parent [-] | | If we ban AI for cheating but let human cheating go unchecked how does that solve the problem of cheating? And I'm 100% sure managers are right now using AI to make decisions, or even cheat, IBM training manual wisdom not withstanding. | | |
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