| ▲ | Z80 – The 1970s Microprocessor Still Alive (2021)(computer.org) |
| 73 points by asdefghyk 6 hours ago | 35 comments |
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| ▲ | Lio 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Then, as a young engineer, I worked in a large mainframe computer system based on Z80. This sentence threw me a little bit. Which mainframes were based on the Z80? I'd love to know more about that. |
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| ▲ | helf 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | If it wasnt some mostly custom system it was probably an HP 64000 Logic Development System. Which used Z80s to run user facing software and control the actual mainframe. I doubt it was a pure Z80 "mainframe". Loved to be proved wrong though! |
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| ▲ | getfacl 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Tom Jennings, the creator of fidenet, is producing a nice modern Z80 computer[0] 0. https://www.ebay.ie/itm/206496219323 |
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| ▲ | meekins 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Due to its simplicity it's a fun little processor to program. Hacking on some assembly on a ZX spectrum emulator is a nice way to stay sane in this high abstraction LLM age. |
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| ▲ | flohofwoe 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | "Simple" is really not a word I would associate with the Z80 ;) The ISA is quite messy because of the backward compatibility requirement with the Intel 8080 (e.g. the Z80 had to fill undocumented gaps in the 8080 opcode encoding map with new instructions, four of which were prefix instructions to unlock additional instruction 'subsets' (DD/FD for replacing instructions involving the HL register pair with indexed addressing modes via the IX/IY registers, and ED/CB prefixes for adding two entirely new opcode blocks). If the Zilog engineers would have been free to design their own ISA I'm sure they would have been able to come up with a much more elegant design. Also the Z80 had more than twice as many transistors as the 6502 (8500 for the Z80 vs 3500 for 6502). I still prefer programming the Z80 over the 6502 though :) | | |
| ▲ | rvba 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I am simplifying a lot since there were much more chips involved... but 3500 transistors to have countless hours of fun to play NES games really puts things into perspective My 5090 has 92 billion transistors (I dont say they dont bring fun) | |
| ▲ | Lio 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If the Zilog engineers would have been free to design their own ISA I'm sure they would have been able to come up with a much more elegant design. That's an interesting idea. They were previously part of the team that designed the 8080 so they must have been very familiar with the ISA and the design philosophy. I'm sure they'd be able to come up with improvements but how much more elegant it would have been is hard to say. | |
| ▲ | dosisking 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > If the Zilog engineers would have been free to design their own ISA I'm sure they would have been able to come up with a much more elegant design. Since Zilog was founded by former Intel engineers, they were probably the ones who helped design the 8080 in the first place? |
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| ▲ | stevekemp an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I cut my teeth writing assembly on a ZX Spectrum (mostly hacking games for infinite lives, etc). Over the past couple of years I've gone back to the Z80, working on CP/M emulation, testing, and similar things. It's fun to play the old infocom games, and mess around with BIOSes when all you have is 64k. There's a lot of good CP/M reference material out there, and numerous emulators to run it on modern systems |
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| ▲ | julienmartlet 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ironically (and sadly) the Z80 was discontinued not very long after this piece was published. |
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| ▲ | dragontamer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We still have the venerable 8051 for anyone who likes old architectures!! | | | |
| ▲ | grishka 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm sure clones are still being made. | | |
| ▲ | nubinetwork 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | The cpu possibly, but I had a hard time trying to find the support chips (ctc, sio/pio, etc)... | | |
| ▲ | avadodin 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Many applications didn't even use those peripherals so I suppose production ended earlier. The Z80 could even refresh the RAM by itself. It was not like the 8080 which required two support chips only to function. |
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| ▲ | librasteve 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| interesting to be reminded that an 8080 (8 bit datapath) took 4,800 transistors an Apple M5 Max is 100,000,000,000 transistors (ok it’s 18 CPU + 40 GPU cores) by comparison so 17 million 8080 equivalents |
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| ▲ | Someone 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > so 17 million 8080 equivalents At, ballpark, 1000 times the clock frequency. It’s a pity we do not how to connect such a large number of tiny cores in a way so that it can perform meaningful work. One hurdle is that, even ignoring the insane amount of connections needed, it would not be possible to connect each of those cores to each other one because their address spaces are so tiny. | | | |
| ▲ | dosisking 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is understandable, considering that the M5 is the Ultimate Computer, powered by Dr. Richard Daystrom's very own engrams | | | |
| ▲ | dofm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The ARM 1 only had 25,000 or so. | | |
| ▲ | librasteve 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | wonders how ARM did that - the MIPS R2000 came in at ~115k and the 80286 ~134k anyway - say you want 50% of the transistors for on chip RAM these days, then thats 100 billion / 50 thousand = 2 million ARM 1s clocking at say 3GHz 6e15 MIPS = 6 peta MIPS so if you could run code on it, you would get a 10,000x speed up ;-) | | |
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| ▲ | TacticalCoder 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yup and Moore's law about transistors doubling every 18 to 24 months did basically hold, which is even more impressive. Foreseen it was. | |
| ▲ | flohofwoe 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Nitpicking, but since the M5 includes cache and GPU a more realistic comparision would probably be to count all transistors in an entire 8-bit home computer system against a modern integrated GCPU (e.g. from googling around a C64 might have around 0.75 million transistors, most in the memory chips). And in a way, those old 8-bit home computers also worked like a single integrated 'super-chip', because the whole system was driven by a single clock and entirely 'hard realtime', while modern computers are much more asynchronous (and I guess this asynchronous design is what enabled most performance improvements that go beyond pure transistor count scaling). |
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| ▲ | asdefghyk 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| A paragrap from the linked articale Z80 was the choice of a microprocessor for then home computers such as Radio Shack TRS-80, SORD M23P, M5, Sinclair ZX81, ZX Spectrum, KayPro II, and many other manufacturers.3 It was capable of running the CP/M operating system in most Z80-based PCs. Z80 had a reasonable share in the PC market until Intel revealed its 16-bit microprocessor in the mid-1980s. Z80 was very popular as a microprocessor not only in PC applications, but also in industrial embedded applications, and some of the big manufacturers have Z80 core inside their ASIC chips still today or use enhanced versions of Z80 in consumer electronic devices.4–7 Zilog still manufactures ez80, an enhanced version of the original Z80, which is still being used by Texas Instruments in its TI-84 and TI-84 Plus calculators.7 It is among the few silicon chips that made a remarkable impact on the electronic device industry.8 To this day, Zilog produces a range of Z80-based microprocessors and intelligent peripheral controllers, and they are available from reputed electronics component suppliers.2,9,10 This microprocessor is one of the longest living microprocessors of all time. |
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