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34679 7 hours ago

Amendment 4:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Amendment 5:

"..nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

robviren 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But the bar for hauling someone to court and defacto punishing them financially and smearing them in the eyes of the public is so low. And the path to getting compensation for wrongful prosecution so fraught. What an easy tool the justice system is to punish uppity citizens thinking they don't have a king.

gruez 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Amendment 4:

He was charged for destroying evidence, not refusing a search

>Amendment 5:

Destroying evidence isn't testimony. Moreover he would have been in the clear if he just kept his mouth shut.

fedpost an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Problem is, he didn't destroy shit. "He" (by which I mean, technically the agents) deleted a header that's used to encrypt data but can restored from a backup.

MBCook an hour ago | parent [-]

Deleting isn’t destroying?

fedpost 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

Sure, but the issue is he didn't delete his data, he deleted a header with a key in it, that's it, just a few MB. He didn't delete hundreds of GB of chats or browsing history, he deleted a key to access it and that key isn't necessarily the only one that can access it. All the stuff they want can still be accessed just fine if another copy of the key exists.

To put it in protective, just opening a web browser or some other app can delete/alter more data than was deleted in this case.

hamper653 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> He was charged for destroying evidence, not refusing a search

Evidence with regard to which investigation?

someguydave an hour ago | parent [-]

Border agents are entitled to investigate anything for any reason more or less

wnmurphy an hour ago | parent [-]

If you are a US citizen, they are not entitled to your unlocked phone. They need a judicial warrant if they want you to unlock your phone with a PIN/password. It is settled case law that that falls under your protections under the 14th Amendment.

They can take it for a "reasonable amount of time" (inconvenience you for a few hours and make you miss your connecting flight) while they copy an encrypted image. They then must return it to you.

sgc an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems like the best course of action would be to argue he did not destroy evidence, just made it unavailable at the location to force the requirement for a search warrant. It would probably be a hard sell, but I can't think of a better argument (not a lawyer).

cube00 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Moreover he would have been in the clear if he just kept his mouth shut.

Although then you get a possible delay of undefined duration, additional questioning and seizure of your device.

krapp 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Evidence" of what, exactly? What specific crime did they expect to find evidence of on his phone?

myrmidon 7 hours ago | parent [-]

They were pretty obviously hoping to find a specific crime to accuse him of (because he is a protester against the Atlanta "Cop City" thing).

But no respectable judge would ever have issued a search warrant on the basis of "we want to rifle through his messages/contacts so we can hopefully accuse him of something".

Protesters against this exact same thing were mis-prosecuted under "domestic terrorism" and "racketeering" charges before (got dismissed in 2025).

josefritzishere 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Evidence of what? Destroying evidence assumes he is guilty of a crime which there be evidence of. Our system is predicated on an assumption of innocence. The normal threshold to accuse is a "reasonable, articulable suspicion." This does not meet that criteria.

gruez 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well that's the thing with destroying evidence. If you destroyed it, it becomes harder (or impossible) to prove you did the crime. That's why it's not uncommon for people to be only charged with stuff like "obstruction of justice" rather than the actual crime they allegedly did.

tosti 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But you can't assume someone committed a crime.

mingus88 3 hours ago | parent [-]

In this case, the authorities are claiming they were looking for CSAM. So wiping the phone hindered a valid investigation.

They can say anything they want. They hold all the power. This will never change until enough people take matters into their own hands, as the system has been compromised.

bot403 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And what if he was erasing a steamy affair with a border patrol agent? That's not illegal, but releasing knowledge of it could be damaging to all parties for no reason.

markhahn an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

if the only evidence of a crime is on your phone, what kind of crime is it?

we should always be asking: is this the only way you can prove the accusation? just because it would make LEO life easier - that's not justification for violating the constitution.

an consider what this case teaches us: clean up your devices before you cross a border. how does that even help the goal of law enforcement?

tempodox 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Our system is predicated on an assumption of innocence.

In theory. In practice, this is a hopelessly outdated supposition.

Varelion 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

gruez 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Please try again with an actual argument rather than attacking people based on which "side" I'm on.

Humorist2290 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Is there any question the person who was baselessly charged with CSAM, then terrorism when they realized it was so obviously untenable, as a pretense to detain him would've been treated differently if he were on a different "side"?

gruez 7 hours ago | parent [-]

>the person who was baselessly charged with CSAM, then terrorism

Source? Are we still talking about Samuel Tunick? The article doesn't mention it, and so far as I can tell he was only charged at the border crossing for obstruction.

SauciestGNU 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Not "charged" as in indicted but the search was based on an accusation that he had CSAM on the device. But his political proclivities make it pretty transparent that CSAM was an invented excuse to investigate and punish a political dissident.

Varelion 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

gruez 7 hours ago | parent [-]

"obese nazis"?

jfengel 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The original text is basically useless. They're more like a mission statement rather than directives. They set up broad aspirations, but the implementation has to be aggregated over literally millions of pages of judicial decisions.

Even lawyers with extremely different ideologies will give you convergent answers in a lot of cases, even when those answers conflict with an apparently obvious reading of the original text. Explaining that would require drilling down into details of thousands of court cases -- like reading a complex proof of a seemingly simple theorem.

I don't like that any more than you do. It's not mathematics, and even when given all the details, I usually find their inferences laughably bad -- even when I agree with the conclusion. It's not "logic" as I apply it as a logician, philosopher, or software developer. Lawyers (people on my side ideologically) will insist on the soundness of reasoning for decisions that they don't like but accept as valid.

So I don't find quoting the Constitution to be of any utility. None of those words what you think they mean. And fixing that requires basically throwing out the entire system of American jurisprudence. Which would be fine with me, to be honest.

tempodox 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> None of those words what you think they mean.

And that alone is already a pretty scandalous problem. If the law is not stated in a way that ordinary people can understand, how the hell are they supposed to obey it? Those who cannot afford the highly paid law explainers are basically locked out of society.

krapp 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think you're entirely wrong, but the Constitution binds the government, not citizens. The government can damn well afford to know what the 4th and 5th Amendments mean.

bad_haircut72 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The words are actually extremely clear and its exceptionally prudent to quote them, because nobody with a brain can read them and fail see that the government is simply being unconstitutional - all over the place. Even when the people are powerless, we dont have to give up our powers of seeing the truth. Your post and this whole idea that "the words dont mean what they say they mean" is frankly doublespeak of the lowest form.

petesergeant an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> we dont have to give up our powers of seeing the truth

The truth is that the constitution is interpreted by humans in a common law context, and enforced by the apparatus of state, which has the means to impose its will. Calling this doublespeak is weird.

bad_haircut72 an hour ago | parent [-]

When its "interpreted" in a way that directly contradicts the words themselves then its not an interpretation, its a smokescreen to try and cover up the fact people in power dont want to follow the constitution and are not planning on doing so.

cindyllm 21 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

psunavy03 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> None of those words what you think they mean. And fixing that requires basically throwing out the entire system of American jurisprudence. Which would be fine with me, to be honest.

The Constitution is written in plain English. And for the most part, Supreme Court decisions are written in plain English that any reasonably literate US citizen can understand. Yes, the law has technicalities and terms of art just like any other profession.

But one of the most damaging mentalities in modern times is the idea that the common man is incapable of understanding the law at even a basic level. This is flat-out not the case. Which leads to the follow-on problem: people who think lawyers have the ability to cast magic mumbo-jumbo spells that "get their clients off on a technicality" somehow. The best quote I ever heard about that from an attorney was "any time someone says a person 'got off on a technicality,' you can pretty much just safely replace that in your head with 'had their constitutional rights egregiously violated.'"

Yes, there are problems. Qualified immunity is a problem. Prosecutorial misconduct can be a problem. Abuse of discretion at the border is a problem. But that's different from doomerism about the entire justice system to the degree Very Online people express it.

joshka 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm just guessing here, but the most problematic word on the 4th amendment to attack from the government's perspective is "unreasonable". It's easy to see how a phone border search could be construed as reasonable, and (without digging into this deeply) I suspect that's where most of the push back on this will be.

I suspect the 5th amendment is probably more valuable to the defense here as the password is effectively testimonial and the give us your password or we'll ... is compelled speech.

Either way, it's gonna be many 10s of thousands of dollars in lawyers fees to fight this. Which sucks.

Erem 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

> It's easy to see how a phone border search could be construed as reasonable

I'm curious, is there any case law from the pre digital age regarding people forced to open their briefcase and let the border guard read all their documents at a port of entry?

someothherguyy 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

you don't have those protections at the border: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

OutOfHere 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is no such exception allowed in the Constitution. And if a case is made that they're not legally in the US yet, then by the same logic, they should not be subject to all the same laws of the US yet.

empressplay an hour ago | parent [-]

The Supreme Court has long recognized a border-search exception to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. In United States v. Flores-Montano, the Court looked to the nation’s sovereign “interest in protecting . . . its territorial integrity” to justify such searches.3 In United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, the Court stated, somewhat more narrowly, that Congress is the source of the executive’s power. It explained that “[s]ince the founding of our Republic . . . [Congress has] granted the Executive plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border, without probable cause or a warrant.” The Commerce Clause permits Congress to authorize the seizure of goods at the border.

https://yalelawjournal.org/forum/customs-immigration-and-rig...

TheCoelacanth an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> While the Supreme Court has long recognized a border-search exception to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement, it applies to only two interests: promoting the duty regime and preventing contraband from entering the country; and ensuring that individuals are legally admitted.

The only reasons allowed for border searches are ensuring that individuals are legally admitted (inapplicable here because citizens are always legally entitled to enter) and preventing contraband from entering.

A wiped phone can't contain contraband, so wiping the phone serves the same purpose as a search. It's not destroying evidence anymore than throwing away a water bottle before going through TSA is destroying evidence.

superxpro12 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I see a vast gulf between searching a truck of produce driven by a non-citizen vs intercepting a citizen at the boarder with known affiliations with the opposing political party.

And it's impossible to ignore that context. This is plainly wrong. And people trying to justify this plainly fascist search is sickening.

josefritzishere 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Even Wikipedia spells out that invasive searches require "reasonable suspicion." So we return to the core question... suspicion of what? Suspicion is not a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception

6 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
someothherguyy 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"The government is allowed to use scanning devices and to search personal electronics. Invasive bodily searches, however, require reasonable suspicion." is what the article says