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Turns are Better than Radians(computerenhance.com)
42 points by mayoff 3 hours ago | 22 comments
WCSTombs 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I think I cautiously agree with this notion to some extent, but IMHO the real answer is that it's application-dependent, and if you're writing a low-level trig library and you have to pick one or the other, it really isn't clear to me that turns should win over radians.

I expect many systems that use trigonometry would sometimes use small-angle approximations either for efficiency or to bootstrap to the general case. It'd be natural to use Taylor series here, i.e.:

    cos(x) = 1 - x^2/2 + ...
    sin(x) = x - x^3/6 + ...
If you've committed to representing all trigonometry in "turn" units, then you instead need to use:

    cos(2 pi t) = 1 - (2 pi t)^2/2 + ...
    sin(2 pi t) = (2 pi t) - (2 pi t)^3/6 + ...
In this case it would be less accurate and efficient to force everything into turns if you ever need to work with radians.

Closely related to this, if you ever need the derivative of a function that does trig (e.g., in numerical optimization), you may as well use radians because if you don't, any extra factors you apply will appear in the expressions for the derivatives and you'll have to deal with them there anyway.

Basically for that reason, it's pretty clear that trigonometry in terms of radians is the "correct" convention mathematically speaking (away from computers), since derivatives of the radian-based trig functions are so easy to express. Given that, if we have to pick one convention...isn't it less confusing to use the same thing everywhere? That said, there are interfaces that provide both versions, and since as the article points out there are cases where the turn-based versions can be more efficient, that's probably the right way to go.

mlyle 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The time where "turns" are really great is when a whole lot of what you're doing is a phase accumulator.

Analemma_ 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't have a super-wide gamut of experience here and numerical analysis isn't my specialty, but nearly all trig implementations I've looked into (in both software and hardware) make heavy use of lookup tables and other shortcuts. I've never seen a Taylor series used in a general implementation - not saying it doesn't exist anywhere, but in most cases that I'm familiar with you could support turns just as easily with a different lookup table.

mayoff 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I like to store angles as turns in my own code, because (as noted) it makes quarter-turns computable without rounding. OTOH if you need, say, twelfths of a turn, you might want to just store angles as degrees since that’s already common.

Michael Spivak, in Calculus (3rd ed p. 301) considers the unit choice to be a property of the function and initially defines sin° and sinʳ (before settling on sin meaning sinʳ) and considers “sin x°” and “sin x radians” to be misleading, saying that ‘a number x is simply a number—it does not carry a banner indicating that it is “in degrees” or “in radians”’. I don’t really understand this argument, since in science and engineering we constantly carry units around with our quantities.

math-man an hour ago | parent [-]

It's because both radians and degrees are are a ratio of a length to another length and are thus dimensionless. No matter how you measure it, all angles are without a unit.

It's most obvious with radians but it's also the case with degrees.

Using radians, you are guaranteed to not introduce unusual extra terms to rescale angles, if you use any other scale of angle you will have to keep track of extra terms.

That may be useful in whatever you're doing. I work in degrees quite often and I'm careful to keep track of the 2pi/360 terms that crop up all over the place. With grade measure you have to keep track of 2pi/400 terms and with turns you have to keep track of 2pi/1 terms that will repeatedly show up.

Again, depending on what you're doing, this may or may not make sense to do.

In general, mathematics works out easier when the scaling term is 2pi/2pi because then you have a lovely 1 scale factor you don't have to keep track of.

eru an hour ago | parent [-]

Agreed. Though sometimes it's useful to keep track of 'fake' units like for angles, to make something like dimensional analysis work for you.

But that's more for analysis of your code / formulas than when you actually go and compute things.

traes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Very bold title! Turns are very convenient until you need to calculate a rate of change, as of course d/dx sin(2pi x) = 2pi cos(2pi x). Unfortunately this is a common enough problem that I will be sticking with the radian.

HWR_14 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

I feel like that approximates how I learned math. In geometry or trig you can use degrees or turns or any other unit, but almost never radians because that's harder write. As soon as you learn calculus, you switch to radians and never go back.

chabska an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem is that trigonometric functions are used in many more fields beyond geometry. The input is not always an angle around a point in euclidean space, it could be phase angle of a periodic signal. You can make an alternative set of trig functions that take turns, but you will anger a lot of people if you mess with the vanilla trig functions.

sriku an hour ago | parent [-]

You'll have to bring in the 2π factor somewhere. Cant escape it. If sint is the sin function but with angle give in turns, then d/dx sint(x) = 2π cost(x). sin(x) ~ x for small x but sint(x) ~ 2πx for small x.

slwvx an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, the idea of a turn [1] is interesting. And maybe useful.

I have a different question: What would it take for a compiler to remove (elide) the multiply by pi + divide by pi that the author uses as an example? I guess one would not have to go as far as a Lean proof that two bits of code produce the same result?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_(angle)

eru 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Well, they don't produce the same result in floating point math, I'm afraid.

So you'd need to teach your compiler about what your formulas mean and what context you are using them in. (Ie are you actually doing geometry, or is your AI coding agent just trying arbitrary activation functions for your neuronal net experiments and some of them happen to look like geometry?)

nomel 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's a mistake to care about equality of floating point numbers [1]. You must usually consider the lower bits of the number as random.

I assume you're saying something other than this though?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_epsilon

ainch 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think the point is that, from a compiler's perspective, it's not obvious how much you should be allowed to optimise code at the cost of changing the outcomes of floating points maths - do you allow 1e-10, or 1e-6, or 1e-4 level changes? Does your compiler have to run some test calcs to bound the scale of the change introduced by rewriting fp maths? Some compilers will let you opt in to rewriting floating point maths, but that's opt in so users understand that their numeric outputs might change between optimisation levels.

For more, there's a good post on this kind of flag in Rust: https://pythonspeed.com/articles/faster-float-math-rust/

oliculipolicula 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe related

Hamilton's theory of turns revisited

https://arxiv.org/abs/0904.4787

zahrevsky an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It turns out (pun intended!)

Thanks, I was waiting for this pun the moment turns were introduced in the article.

groundzeros2015 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fails to mention that radians relates angle to arc length.

HWR_14 12 minutes ago | parent [-]

There are valid reasons to prefer radians, especially in calculus. The fact that it's related to arc length is something that never (directly) comes up.

jp57 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or you could use 1/360 of a turn.

groundzeros2015 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

degrees were primarily chosen due to many integer divisors - likely for applications of time and seasons.

ethanlipson 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the author is either being disingenuous or doesn’t understand the subject if they don’t honestly address the reason radians are used in the first place. I’m leaning towards the latter, because I can’t imagine someone having an ulterior motive for pushing for trig reform like this, lol. Radians really are the natural unit for trigonometry. With that said, I certainly agree that a lot of code would be simplified by using turns over radians, especially outside the context of numerical methods. I could see myself supporting the addition of sint(x) and cost(x) functions to the math standard library, where sint = “sine turns”.

While not a strict rule, Chesterton’s fence is a good heuristic: before we change something, we should first attempt to understand why it is the way it is.

traes an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The title should say (2022)