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a2ff6eeb0 3 hours ago

I don't know why anyone should care about understanding the results if the AI is better at math than us. It'd be like demanding that human mathematicians are banned from publishing until their cats understand the theorems.

If Amazon uses AI math to come up with better routing, the cats can benefit from cheaper delivery fees just as much as humans can. No understanding needed.

The human brain is being obsoleted, soon thinking is going to be a recreational activity like weightlifting. If you want to think as a hobby, that's fine, but most people will be free of that toil of unwanted brain labor.

BeetleB an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The essay On Proof and Progress in Mathematics by a Field's medalist is worth reading:

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236

He wrote it in 1994.

He writes about how he almost "destroyed" a subdiscipline in mathematics by becoming so good at it that he outclassed everyone. PhD students were advised to stay away from the whole field.

When he discovered this, he realized his error was that he was focusing on producing results, and not focusing on explaining his thought process. It's that thought process that is valuable in advancing the frontier - results alone won't do it. It didn't matter how many theorems he proved, if he was the only one who had the mental framework in mind on how to think about the whole field.

I'm sure we've come across abstruse books where every theorem has a rabbit being pulled out of a hat, whereas other readers find it intuitive. It's because the latter has developed a mental model for the discipline, and you haven't.

So he set about slowing down, and focusing on holding lots of seminars where he worked with other mathematicians to explain the thought process. Eventually others started publishing proofs of key theorems.

When people publish in a journal, they are not merely doing it to show the result. They are having a conversation with other mathematicians. If they cannot explain their own proof, they're not having a conversation.

This is why even decades after the Four Color Theorem was proved, plenty of mathematicians don't consider it "mathematics".

a2ff6eeb0 an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't understand why people are so fixated on the minds doing the mathematics being made out of meat. It seems obvious that soon, minds made of meat aren't going to be able to keep up.

Useful thought, rather than hobbyist thought, seems destined to be the exclusive domain of silicon.

BeetleB an hour ago | parent [-]

> I don't understand why people are so fixated on the minds doing the mathematics being made out of meat.

I don't follow - are you surprised that mathematicians have social rules on how they interact with others?

You're definitely welcome to set up a journal that takes whatever types of papers you deem acceptable. It's not like they're preventing the dissemination of information by taking this stance.

Personally, I wouldn't hire a SW engineer who only showcases output from LLMs, and can't explain the code it wrote.

a2ff6eeb0 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

Would you hire a SW engineer that only showcases output from compilers, and can't explain the assembly that it wrote?

Since even the engineers that know what's going on aren't actually reading all of the AI output any more (or, if they are, they're not keeping up with their peer's output), why would you care? I don't think humans should waste time trying to understand their code, it's too slow and costly, and the understanding will be blown away the next time the AI changes it anyways.

applecoffeecake 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If a result has a real-world application, then it can easily be published in an engineering or applied scientific journal in which it is already the norm to present methods that work empirically with little to no understanding of how.

FuckButtons 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you are free from physical and mental labor, you are in fact, not supplying labor, and are therefore surplus to requirements.

auggierose 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

Whose requirements?

esafak 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

The employer's, whose salary affords your subsistence.

hintymad 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I don't know why anyone should care about understanding the results if the AI is better at math than us

This is a big if, right? AI can still generate subtle or even silly mistakes that any normal human, let alone a mathematician, wouldn't make. Besides, math is more than just getting a conclusion but to understand and to generalize new ways of solving problems. After all, mathematicians are a curious bunch. To quote Hilbert's epitaph: We must know. We shall know.

bayesnet 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s a bit of an ominous quote given that Hilbert’s program was dismantled shortly thereafter by Gödel…

pfdietz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm reminded of the joke about the two friends who come across a bear in the woods. When one puts on running shoes, his friend chides him that he can't outrun the bear. He responds, "I don't need to outrun the bear, I just need to outrun you."

AI doesn't have to implement Hilbert's vision and be able to prove everything. I just has to out-prove human mathematicians.

a2ff6eeb0 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, that's why we have automated proof checking. And again, I don't think humans will be able to solve problems at a commercial scale in the future.

Maybe we'll have some hobbyist dabblers, but any real progress will be done by machines that skip the human.

TSiege 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m not anti AI but thinking the human brain is obsolete and using it will become a hobby is a dystopian view of the future where no one has any agency anymore. By your logic since our brains provide no value why not just shoot ourselves in the head while we’re at?

a2ff6eeb0 2 hours ago | parent [-]

What's wrong with sitting on the beach with a bottle of wine for eternity, with no need to do anything, knowing that all your needs and desires will be automatically taken care of?

I don't think you can be coherently pro-AI without thinking that the human brain will be obsolete, unless you believe in some inherent magic that the brain is imbued with. The only other option is that you haven't thought through the long term consequences of the innovation.

cubefox an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If Amazon uses AI math to come up with better routin

Most research mathematics is pure mathematics which is completely useless. No routing algorithms. It's only relevant because we (or at least mathematicians) are interested in it. So an AI producing incomprehensible proofs would be completely pointless. That's why Tao insists on the importance of human understanding.

mohamedkoubaa 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What if the better routing leads to an outage that the AI can't explain or fix and all the humans who might have understood it were laid off or otherwise unavailable?