| ▲ | smallmancontrov 6 hours ago |
| Democrats Change In Deficit
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Joe Biden -$999B
Barack Obama -$747B
Bill Clinton -$383B
Jimmy Carter +$25.3B
Republicans Change In Deficit
----------- --------
Donald Trump +$2.108T
George W. Bush +$1.541T
George H. W. Bush +$102B
Ronald Reagan +$73.7B
Gerald Ford +$47.5B
Richard Nixon +$9.4B
Dwight Eisenhower -$3.2B
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| ▲ | msandford 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It would be nice to see change in debt numbers vs change in deficit numbers. I think only Clinton ran a surplus in the last 30 years. |
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| ▲ | dgellow 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | With all the infrastructure work needed to adapt to a changing climate that’s very unlikely to happen. Assuming we decide to take the threat seriously | | |
| ▲ | mathgeek 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is how I view it these days as well. I'm fine with running a deficit as long as we're solving real problems at a mix of time horizons. Using public funds to funnel more money to the ultra wealthy is the issue for me as a citizen. | | |
| ▲ | throw0101d 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > This is how I view it these days as well. I'm fine with running a deficit as long as we're solving real problems at a mix of time horizons. There's nothing "these days" about the idea: that's how all debt should be looked at. How much in interest will it cost you, and are the benefits you get worth that cost? Borrowing money at 2-4% to build water/sewers infrastructure so your population does not die, and thus allows for better economic growth, can pay for the borrowed money easily. Or roads, bridges, rail, schools, scientific research, etc. If you're borrowing money because you have low revenues due to tax cuts (especially in top tax brackets), then perhaps your ROI won't be as good. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast | |
| ▲ | PunchyHamster 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well the problems are not being solved, they are being added |
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| ▲ | smallmancontrov 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yep, and the last Republican to run a surplus was Eisenhower during FY 1960. | | |
| ▲ | m0llusk 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Eisenhower who, despite being exhausted by WWII efforts, ran for presidency because he saw that as the only way to prevent a civil war. Nowadays the American Left is Center Right, but back then the American Right was Center Left. Things change, things stay the same. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Eisenhower who, despite being exhausted by WWII efforts, ran for presidency because he saw that as the only way to prevent a civil war. Can you share more about this? I'm unfamiliar with a post-World War II civil war risk. Who were the conspirators? Who would be fighting whom? > Nowadays the American Left is Center Right, but back then the American Right was Center Left. Things change, things stay the same. I don't think this is the case. Populism has confused some folks about where things stand. There also seems to be this default assumption, kind of like the End of History, that being "left" is associated with moral goodness and so haha the American left is only just center right, ergo not quite good enough yet! I'd challenge that assumption. Frankly, the center is often the best because moving too far to one side or the other is destabilizing. Communism would be awful, as would other authoritarian ideologies like fascism. | | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The pendulum has been swinging pro-capital since Reagan and has not even stalled yet. This affects both parties. You will not find enlightenment by averaging "heads I win" with "tales you lose." FDR Democrats: fixed the Great Depression by bailing out the people not the banks (construction of roads, bridges, schools, dams, airports), regulated the banks, legislated protections for unions, electrified rural America, ended elder poverty with Social Security, won WWII, won the peace after WWII. Paid for it by taxing the rich, paid down the debt by taxing pensions. Clinton Democrats: cut the government to the bone, "DOGE but real," massive tax hike on top workers, massive tax cut on capital, kicked offshoring into gear (NAFTA was voted against by most House and Senate Democrats), teed up the China WTO admission for Bush, and handed him a massive budget surplus with a bow on top ready to be pissed away on not one but two pointless Republican forever-wars. Oh, and bonus Epstein connection. These are not the same. FDR Democrats would see Clinton Democrats as 100% DINOs, doing everything that Republicans say they want. The DINOs can only be identified as non-Republican due to their fiscal restraint which has not been a Republican quality since Eisenhower. Obama Democrats were better, but chose to bail out the banks not the people, didn't pass single-payer healthcare, and didn't end Bush's forever wars. Biden ended Afghanistan and quietly started enforcing Trump fair trade policies. So the Democratic party has been moving left at a snail's pace after reaching a zenith of "Republicans but less shit," but they are still far, far from FDR. Who was in turn far from actual socialists or communists. Here's hoping that on this next swing of the pendulum we land on FDR again, yeah? In any case, you cannot average your way to enlightenment. If you want that, you must learn about actual policies and actual history. |
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| ▲ | marcusverus 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The left's worldview is a pile of lies with their opinions on top. Strange to behold. | | |
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| ▲ | goalieca 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not an American here, but doesn’t Congress pass budgets? Everyone always blames the president but as I look in from the outside, it’s entirely the house and the senate who bungle things. |
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| ▲ | dataflow 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've had the same question for a long time and I suspect the answer is something like "the executive is still the one doing the analysis and making the proposals" - presumably Congress doesn't just allocate with complete disregard for what the executive requests. If the executive requests less then it (usually) gets less. But I'd definitely appreciate a more satisfactory answer. |
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| ▲ | Y-bar 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Two thumbs up for bringing numbers. Though I would like to see which dates were used to calculate them. And if it was from ”first day to last day of office” it would also be interesting to calculate with a certain ”lag” to account for the fact that effect of some legislation may not show until a bit later. |
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| ▲ | refurb 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You need to adjust for inflation. Also the correct measure is % of GDP |
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| ▲ | fluidcruft 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Democrats Change in Deficit
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Joe Biden -6.1% GDP
Barack Obama -6.4% GDP
Bill Clinton -5.0% GDP
Jimmy Carter -0.2% GDP
Republicans Change in Deficit
----------- -----------------
Donald Trump +8.6% GDP
George W. Bush +11.0% GDP
George H. W. Bush +1.1% GDP
Ronald Reagan +0.2% GDP
Gerald Ford +2.3% GDP
Richard Nixon +0.7% GDP
Dwight Eisenhower -1.1% GDP
via ChatGPT which among other things verified the original table. I didn't bother with inflation adjustment since it's normalized by GDP. | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | smallmancontrov 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Good call, normalizing to GDP instead of deficit fixes the flip into/out of surplus problem. Also, now that aggro "cite your sources" guy ran, it's probably worth duplicating the cite here: https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/information-resources/budget/... Despite being witehouse.gov, I am pleased to see that this is one page that Trump has not yet updated to read "Republicans Rule Democrats Drool" over an editorialized fever dream replacing inconvenient data. Grab it while it lasts, and let's hope that accounting remains boring enough to repel such attention! | |
| ▲ | root-parent 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Change in U.S. Gross Federal Debt
(fiscal-year-end figures, not inauguration-to-inauguration) Democrats
---------------------------------------------------
President Start End Change
---------------------------------------------------
Joe Biden $28.386T $37.375T +$8.989T
Barack Obama $11.876T $20.206T +$8.330T
Bill Clinton $4.351T $5.770T +$1.419T
Jimmy Carter $0.706T $0.995T +$0.288T
Republicans
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President Start End Change
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Donald Trump $20.206T $28.386T +$8.180T
George W. Bush $5.770T $11.876T +$6.106T
George H.W. Bush $2.868T $4.351T +$1.483T
Ronald Reagan $0.995T $2.868T +$1.873T
Gerald Ford $0.484T $0.706T +$0.223T
Richard Nixon $0.366T $0.484T +$0.118T
Dwight Eisenhower $0.266T $0.293T +$0.027T
Source:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/information-resources/budget/...These are changes between fiscal-year endpoints, not the exact
amount of debt incurred during each president's time in office.Fiscal years do not line up with inauguration dates. | | | |
| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | FrustratedMonky 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There is theory that debt drives GDP. The more debt, the more money in circulation, more GDP. So cutting debt, cuts GDP. Also. Not sure GDP is completely normalized verses inflation. | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm no expert about anything related to this but the obvious fact that the size of the debt as proportion of GDP has consistently increased since Reagan first implemented this scheme suggests it's pretty obvious these GDP gains do not offset increased debt (and that this is causative). | | |
| ▲ | FrustratedMonky 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not offset. Other way around. Debt comes from spending, that spending is on stuff, which drives GDP. So whole concept that we could reduce debt by increasing GDP and tax it, is not how the money actually flows. This is why in economic downturns, often the best solution is more debt, by more spending. And trying to fix economy by 'austerity' makes things worse. Of course, also I don't know solution, or what the 'right size' debt should be. Just that it isn't black/white. |
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| ▲ | marcusverus 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is nonsensical. Debt-to-GDP over the course of an entire term is what matters. Debt was 77% of GDP when Obama took office and >102% when he left. The "change in deficit" is a useless measure. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Democrats Change In Debt/GDP
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Joe Biden +0.1 pp
Barack Obama +22.2 pp
Bill Clinton -9.4 pp
Jimmy Carter -3.1 pp
Republicans Change In Debt/GDP
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Donald Trump +18.9 pp
George W. Bush +27.3 pp
George H. W. Bush +12.6 pp
Ronald Reagan +19.8 pp
Gerald Ford +2.3 pp
Richard Nixon -4.7 pp
Dwight Eisenhower -16.1 pp
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| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | actionfromafar 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | President Change pp
Eisenhower -1.8
Nixon +0.8
Ford +0.8
Carter 0
Reagan +0.5
GHW Bush +1.8
Clinton -6.1
GW Bush +4.3
Obama -6.6
Trump +11
Biden -5.8
But Trump 2 will definitely lower it, more than anyone has ever seen before. | | |
| ▲ | frankdejonge 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What do you base that expectation on? | |
| ▲ | apercu 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > But Trump 2 will definitely lower it, more than anyone has ever seen before. Lower what? | | |
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| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
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| ▲ | itbeho 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| You should be comparing which party controlled congress as well. |
