| ▲ | pu_pe 4 hours ago |
| > Overall my view is that AI is structurally a technology that tends to concentrate power, for reasons that have nothing to do with regulation (more to do with the extreme implications of the scaling laws). Open-weights do help some with this but are nowhere near a sufficient solution because they simply shift the concentration somewhat to those with the most compute and chips (which are roughly the frontier labs plus maybe hardware providers). This is actually a good point. Open models are getting better and better, some of them might even be useful in consumer hardware now. But if AI performance is still correlated with compute power, then no doubt power will remain with the people owning the chips. |
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| ▲ | podgorniy 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Swap that point about AI with "electricity". Everything runs on electricity it's "a technology that tends to concentrate power" (no pun intended). The electricity providers must be too powerful... But somehow electricity providers aren't that powerful. Unless there is no competition in sight... The point "AI is structurally a technology that tends to concentrate power" is not that correct. They need this statement to be true, otherwise no way to justify the trillion evaluations. |
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| ▲ | pjc50 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Swap that to "oil" and everyone goes "well, yes, obviously, oil is so powerful that people start wars over it". Iran has hit the Amazon data center in Bahrain. The Ukranian deep drone bombing campaign has hit refineries, but also Wildberries, the "Russian Amazon" warehouses. The US campaign against Iran now, Iraq and Serbia previously, targeted power infrastructure. It will obviously be a target in the next war, and AI goes on that list too. Every time the US completes an AI data center, someone in the Chinese nuclear command updates their target priority list. And vice versa. | | |
| ▲ | mohamedkoubaa an hour ago | parent [-] | | >Every time the US completes an AI data center, someone in the Chinese nuclear command updates their target priority list You might have stumbled on the way to convince people that more data centers are a good thing | | |
| ▲ | Iolaum 39 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Especially with many of those datacenters being built next to residential areas ... </s> |
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| ▲ | RugnirViking an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | but its difficult to use more electricity directly to get more utility. There are some rare ways - things like PtX systems - but even those are linear at best. AI is concentrating power in the sense that nobody wants to use the twentieth smartest AI - so if you can use the most compute, you get an outsized share of the rewards (in terms of paying customers) - over and above your share of the compute. There are other business sectors where similar dynamics exist - where the biggest capital tends to win - a sort of natural monopoly type situation, its nothing about hyperscaling or whatever. | |
| ▲ | simgt 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Competition is only one of the ways to keep a corporation aligned. In the case of France, having a state monopoly on electricity even worked very well until we broke it for the sake of competition. | |
| ▲ | fredoliveira 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The point "AI is structurally a technology that tends to concentrate power" is not that correct. They need this statement to be true, otherwise no way to justify the trillion evaluations. How is it not true? The biggest companies in the world are, quite obviously (just look at the numbers) going to be AI companies. The most powerful governments in the world are quite clearly going to be those that are close to (or in control of) AI companies. People have a very hard time seeing the second order effects of the control of intelligence - we need to fix that. | |
| ▲ | andersonl 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You realize utilities are arguably the most regulated industry in the US, right? Like this isn't just a bad counter, it's the example of necessary regulation due to concentration. | |
| ▲ | inigyou an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Trump already banned solar and offshore wind, in order to concentrate power (literally) with the oil companies. | |
| ▲ | XorNot 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Except that's a bad analogy: electricity is the means by which to do work. The outputs of models in AI datacenters are the work. The electricity company does not get the entirety of my useful input to the work as a result of me using electricity, but an AI company does. |
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| ▲ | orbital-decay an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Current AI is at least a few orders of magnitude less efficient than it could be (as evident from biological spiking networks, e.g. human brain). At some point the labs put too much work and money into transformers and nearly abandoned fundamental research, in both ML and hardware. There are tons of low hanging fruits in efficiency but you'll have to redo everything from scratch so nobody bothers. Which is also pretty convenient and lets people like Dario Amodei speak about "natural concentrations of power". |
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| ▲ | hodgehog11 an hour ago | parent [-] | | The Chinese labs are picking up on the low hanging fruits on efficiency, and no, you do not need to abandon transformers, you just need to push them closer to the more computationally efficient architectures of the past. OpenAI and Google seem to be trying a few things too. Anthropic clearly are not though, and to call their operations wasteful is an understatement. |
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| ▲ | pas 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Arguably the question is whether it's economically feasible to self-host something similar. Are you self-hosting Google or Bing? No, but we have quite a huge ecosystem of full-text search tools with PageRank, with options to scale to almost Google scale (if you have the money). After all LLM training starts with the same crawl mechanism. As long as barriers to entry is not too high (ie. it makes sense to take the risk to start a business that provides something similar - usually for a niche) market forces work. We have the classic empirical chart reproducing microeconomics. https://www.fda.gov/about-fda/center-drug-evaluation-and-res... And setting up a pharma plant is also very capital intensive. Here the obvious barrier to entry is completely artificial. (Which provides an incentive to spend a lot of money on R&D -- though it naturally raises the question of Pareto efficiency.) |
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| ▲ | spwa4 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're missing the point, what will happen is this: 1) in things like tax law, registering with city hall, dealings with the DMV, your phone subscription, insurance contract, ... you will find that one of the new fine prints in the contract will be that you're not allowed to use AI to communicate with them. 2) because of how SynthID works (you need the SynthID keys to verify, which are secret. So the only way to find if text is ChatGPT/Google/Anthropic watermarked is to ask ChatGPT/Google/Anthropic), government and large companies can enforce this against you. That is what the watermark is for. To end any insurance claim written by AI with "you're not allowed to submit AI written insurance claims" and refuse it outright there and then. "Sorry your request was AI watermarked and pursuant to law 234 of 2025/03/11 chapter 3258 paragraph 33 decile 1299 we hereby close it without response" 3) when they reply, however, they use a custom model that also has custom SynthID keys. You will not even be able to tell their responses are AI written, or at least, you won't be able to prove it. You won't be able to enforce any AI-related rights (ie. the right to talk to a human) you have under the law against large companies. In other words: this is to make sure that all the advantages AI provides are available to deny your unemployment claim, and to Verizon to charge you more, but completely inaccessible TO YOU when you want to change to a cheaper subscription. They can inundate YOU with AI-written requests BUT YOU CAN'T. Self-hosting helps because it prevents them from verifying if your responses are AI written, because you can generate non-watermarked AI text and so there is a level playing field. | | |
| ▲ | RandomLensman 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 1) Would that fine print be binding? 2) What actual law/regulation would that currently be that would be used for such an outright refusal? 3) Would that comply with current regulation? | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Have you ever dealt with a government or government adjacent company? It'll be spec'd out so that it's cheaper to bend over and take it than take it to court and prove them wrong. | |
| ▲ | spwa4 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > 1) Would that fine print be binding? For government, because it's in law or regulations (ministerial decisions in Europe). For large companies "You agreed to it" (you know, like you agreed to allow Verizon to sell your location data to Palantir) The other 2 questions I don't understand. My point is that the EU AI directive makes this possible. Makes it possible in ONE direction, while prohibiting the other. AI can be used by government and large companies to spam you and deal with you, and can't be used by you without being 100% up front about that to them (ie. enabling refusal) | | |
| ▲ | RandomLensman 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | 1) Laws need parliament, no? Just agreeing to it isn't necessarily enough at least in some countries. 2) What laws and sections specifically makes that possible? Are there examples of that happening? 3) Where can I find that interpretation of article 50(?)? Some other article? (To the extent that things would need to be labelled/watermarked etc.) | | |
| ▲ | spwa4 an hour ago | parent [-] | | 1) Laws need parliament, no? No. Here is the list of organizations that have the power to make laws in the EU (and JUST the across-the-EU part of that list, within countries, within states, within provinces, within towns there's another list). This is referred to in legal tradition as the "Hierarchy of norms", because there is also a clear order defined. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/eu-hiera... | | |
| ▲ | RandomLensman an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think you need to be more precise then on what you mean by "law" and differentiate there and also by what authorises that. |
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| ▲ | pas an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | this seems exactly the usual anti-consumer bullshit that is regulated state-by-state (or sometimes by (lack of) FCC/FTC effort, or by the CFPB that is now a zombie) however, AI doesn't really influence this. already there's a lot of problem with things like Ticketmaster, Apple's walled garden, abuses of IP law (patent trolls, DMCA trolls), etc. the insurance industry is a prime example of this. the suffering caused by power imbalance is incomprehensible, and yet there's not enough political will to address this. sure, it's easily possible that some important aspects of our everyday lives will be worsened by bad AI regulation. but IMHO this is wholly an upstream problem, it's a symptom of bad politics. (a byproduct of the Zip2 to Tesla to "democracy with roman salute characteristics" pipeline.) that said, obviously the foundation to have any chance of a nonpatological market to exist is that self-hosting has to be legal. |
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| ▲ | woadwarrior01 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think his point is hand wavy at best. It presupposes infinite scaling and ignores all the algorithmic efficiency wins that are being discovered. Ironically, many of which are being discovered with autoresearch style workflows, using the very LLMs that his company builds. The #1 post on HN right now[1] is full of people jubilating about how they can run Qwen 3.8 27B on their > 5 year old GPUs. If that isn't democratization of AI, I don't know what is. I'm sure he's smart enough to instantaneously realize this too, but as the famous Upton Sinclair quote goes, he won't mention it even if he does. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49324985 |
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| ▲ | pu_pe 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Which percentage of people have GPUs capable of running Qwen3.8 27B? I am one of those, and for my job I am still resorting to hyperscalers because tasks are completed faster and more accurately that way. Even if we assume that models will no longer improve and we reach a point where everyone can run Fable in their laptop, surely running 1000x Fable agents would give you an advantage. I think access to compute will matter just as much, if not more, as access to models. | | |
| ▲ | woadwarrior01 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | NVIDIA's 3090 was released in September 2020. Apple's M1 was released ~2 months later. Anyone with a 5 year old M1 Mac with 32GB or more RAM can run a 4-bit quantized version of Qwen3.8 27B on their machine. AFAICT, there are ~110m Apple Silicon Macs in the world. I'd wager that at least ~20% of those have enough memory to run this model. And if you account for gamers with NVIDIA and AMD cards, I'd wager that the segment is at least an order of magnitude bigger. > Even if we assume that models will no longer improve and we reach a point where everyone can run Fable in their laptop, surely running 1000x Fable agents would give you an advantage. IMO, asymptotic advantages are marginal. At least for coding, we got a glimpse into how much of an advantage it gives (or doesn't) when the Claude Code codebase leaked[1] ~4 months ago. :) [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47586778 | | |
| ▲ | pixelesque an hour ago | parent [-] | | As someone typing this on an M1 Mac with 32 GB of RAM who tried using 3.8 27B (Q4_K_M) yesterday in both LM Studio and llama.cpp, I wouldn't call it particularly usable in terms of token speed. (and that was with `--spec-type draft-mtp` for llama.cpp). If you want to leave it running with the fans going crazy for 40 mins or overnight or something, fair enough, but otherwise it doesn't seem worth it to me. It's certainly not "interactive", even taking into account the over-thinking it does by default. The 3.6 (maybe they'll release a 3.8?) MoE model is much more usable (but obviously not as good) on this machine spec. |
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| ▲ | InsideOutSanta 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's actually an interesting question, and I don't think we have the data to answer it. But we do have the Steam data, and about 7% of Steam users have a GPU that can run it well at a 4-Bit quant (≥24 GB VRAM). About 30% can run a 3-bit quant - I'd say that's just barely usable (≥16 GB VRAM). I'm not sure whether that's low or high, or how it compares to a general audience. |
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| ▲ | charcircuit 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Physical constraints like time and compute make it so that AI does not concentrate power due to scaling laws. |
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| ▲ | HeatrayEnjoyer 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The very definition of (applied) technology is power amplification. Use a lever, move more weight than you could before, 1 person with the tool now wields the power of 3 without. Making "tech" a career and a societal goal onto itself, without the adjoining understanding of and deep commitment to ethics and the responsible use of power, is why we're sliding into authoritarian rule by a small circle of techno-oligarchs. We need less "move fast and break things" and more "plant trees you will not live to see bear fruit." |