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skrebbel 3 hours ago

Wait is this real? Did a random 25yo get 45B under management because he got some interviews after getting fired from OpenAI? I missed all of this and it almost seems like performance art to me.

cortesoft an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, it’s real, and the failure is much more about risk management than about having wrong fundamentals.

His fundamental thesis is as an AI maximalist, with expertise on who will be the winners.

His fund completely blew up, even though his fundamental thesis still may be correct.

He made a ton of money early, but then he just kept increasing his bet size via leverage. The problem is that these stocks may be going up, but they are EXTREMELY volatile. When the whole market went down with some of the Iran news, his margin levels dipped too low, and his lenders issued margin calls. He had to sell his stakes at losses, and his fund collapsed.

Now, part of the problem is he was not a legacy hedge fund with great relationships with his banks, because if he was, he might have been able to postpone the margin calls. Had he been able to do that, he would have been ok, because his positions actually recovered within a few weeks.

It didn’t matter, though, because he was forced to sell at the low point.

In other words, even if your long term bet is correct, if you are maxing out your margin to max out your bet, you are one volatile dip away from blowing up.

No matter how good the bet, you have to be able to ride out the volatility to survive.

It’s like if someone offered you a bet on a coin flip, where they will pay 5x your bet if you win. How much should you bet on each flip?

Well, by expected value you should bet everything you have, because your EV is 2.5x, so the more you bet the higher your expected value.

However, if you bet it all, you have a 50% chance of losing all your money and not being able to make any more bets.

lordnacho 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's real. Obviously he's a pretty accomplished young guy, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about investments.

It's an interesting look into who gets opportunities in our society.

NiloCK 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Before OpenAI / situational-awareness he made a lot of money on societal-shift type investments and shorts during the lead up to Covid economic impacts.

His "main thing" is success in calling economic impacts of undervalued large shifts, and the premise of the fund is basically that the same thing is occurring around AI, where he also has specific subject matter expertise.

lordnacho 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Well, I don't buy it. There's probably a lot of people who picked out those trends, after all they are just what's in the news. Most of them didn't get 45B to invest.

I'm going to need better evidence to believe he has any skill.

From what I can see, his investors could have just bought AI related stocks themselves.

john_strinlai 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>There's probably a lot of people who picked out those trends, after all they are just what's in the news

i know nothing about this specific person, but the typical rule is that if it has already reached the general news cycle, you are too late.

lordnacho 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

Nah, why would you say that? AI was in the news at least since ChatGPT 3, and you would have done well to buy eg Nvidia up to now.

cmiles8 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes… and some folks gave him money. Per reporting from the NY Times he was broadly laughed out of the room with “East Coast” money which has a massive amount to invest but tends to hold a higher standard on where it goes. Per that reporting, the combination of a lack of experience and inability to give coherent answers to basic questions meant those folks stayed far away.

Regardless he was still able to build a giant pile of cash before alighting it on fire.

askafriend 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well it's not a random 25 year old. He became valedictorian at Columbia and graduated at 19. He was then briefly a part of OpenAI's superalignment team.

After he got fired, he wrote a 165 page thesis on AI in early 2024 that all ended up becoming true in 2026; you can read it for yourself and be the judge: https://situational-awareness.ai

That's what he based the fund on.

It's generational foresight not available to 99.999999999999999999% of 25 year olds. I want to get ahead of the default cynicism and "oh it's just dumb luck woe is me" aspect of HN.

mbesto 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> generational foresight not available to 99.999999999999999999% of 25 year olds. I want to get ahead of the default cynicism and "oh it's just dumb luck woe is me" aspect of HN.

And I want to get ahead of this absurd romanticism. I have plenty of counterpoints in all types of technical domains (3D printing, blockchain, you name it). Oracles don't exist, just stories of right place right time survivors.

> That's what he based the fund on.

His thesis was so true that his fund folded. Fancy that.

askafriend 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

His fund did not fold.

In fact, the returns were so astronomical that they took a $35B loss (around 67%) which means they were still UP 80% for the year in 2026.

Today they have around $10B under management.

As an investor, how would you feel about being up 80% for the year? Exactly. They're having a phenomenal year.

mbesto 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

He sold the fund to another buyer - it folded by every definition of the term.

mondojesus an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This is only true if newer investors get pro-rata ownership of the Anthropic stake. If that position is side-pocketed, then any investors who were not there at the time of the Anthropic allocation are looking at around 90% loss on their investment.

gorgolo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

His fund didn’t fold btw. They sold / were forced to sell a position that was several hundred percent up at a very very bad price relative to peak. AFAIK the fund is still up on the year though.

mbesto 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

It did.

It's not part of the strategy or operating agreement of a GP/LP structure to sell a specific fund to another investment firm at a discount. The fund may buy and sell assets to create returns for LPs but selling the fund itself at a discount is not a successful exit, e.g. they folded.

modeless 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AIUI they were forced to sell all their positions in public companies at a net loss. The fund is still up for the year only because of a prior investment in Anthropic.

mrhottakes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds like a fold to me.

watwut 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That is called folding the fund. It did in fact fold. "My fund would not fold if I made different hypothetical decisions" argument means your fund did in fact fold.

Yes, being unable to pay margin call means your fund is folding.

gwerbin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wait, is this the group who predicted that we'd have expontential AI progress and AGI in 2027 because we'd have AIs training AIs? Predicated on the preposterous assumption that R&DEffort == RateOfProgress. The more sober and realistic assessment is that R&DEffort >= RateOfProgress, with only short bursts of achieving the upper bound. Leave it to a brilliant 25 year old to overfit to one of those short bursts of progress and then assume it will continue forever just as it always has.

What actually happened is that AI-assisted training of LLMs (mind you -- stuck on that same old transformer architecture, with nothing resembling a medium-term memory, and fine-tuning still doesn't really work as a form of "learning") is right now giving us ~linear-ish progress... beecause we already hit the slowdown in the S curve of what human researchers can achieve.

We are also energy-constrained in ways that the exponential forecasts have no answer for other. Compute is not getting more efficient fast enough to achieve anything close to exponential growth driven by growth in computing power. There are social, moral, and political limits on the amount of energy we can dedicate to AI training in any given time period. And it's not just energy, we're short on RAM wafers and water for cooling and eventually we're going to hit other limits on various minerals and elements of the supply chain etc. etc. So even if it were true that R&DEffort == RateOfProgress without resource constraints, we're likely not going to see that exponential progress because we also need corresponding exponential scifi-scale progress in computing efficiency, cooling, and, energy delivery.

Basically this kid made a bunch of very clever and grand predictions which were always kind of ridiculous and no, they have not come to pass in 2026 and we are not at all on track to achieve AGI in the next 12 months, despite what Altman keeps trying to make the public think.

red75prime an hour ago | parent [-]

Predictions that are based on "no breakthroughs, no significant capability changes with scaling this year" might fail too.

GPerson 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s pretty standard insight among the machine learning crowd. This kid founded the effective altruist club at his school. He’s clearly very smart and ambitious, and has leadership qualities, but you don’t have to exaggerate.

dghlsakjg 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The paper was about half that length and contradicts itself in several places. Hard for something that contradicts itself to be more than half true.

He didn’t have the foresight to avoid collapsing his hedge fund in a minor selloff by hedging.

You might be overselling his ability to predict the future.

bonoboTP 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is "valedictorian" a good signal? I'm from Europe so we don't have the concept, but it seems to me that being the exact single topmost student in a cohort would set a perverse incentive to game the rules and hyperfocus on getting this label. To me being somewhere in the top 5%-10% while ignoring some bullshit and not caring about maximizing all grades would indicate a more robust mind that is focused on better priorities. (I'm not claiming it is easy to become valedictorian, I'm just wondering what precisely it indicates about a person, besides obvious talent and conscientiousness etc)

thijson an hour ago | parent | next [-]

This is anecdotal, however I remember hearing about farmers trying to maximize for egg production. Multiple hens would share a cage. The initial criteria was to only breed the hen that produced the most eggs. Overall egg production declined though. It turns out that the best performing hen was doing so at the cost of the others, ie. eating more than its fair share, being combative. The strategy that worked in raising overall egg production was breeding all the hens from the best performing cage.

askafriend 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's a no-signal or slightly-positive signal until paired with other signals.

For example, doing it at Columbia is meaningful. Doing it at a random school, not so much.

bix6 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Ahhh elitism.

scoring1774 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not sure failing to understand the concept of hedging and the difference between mean and median returns under heavily leveraged trading counts as generational foresight. Most 25 year olds I know in the tech world have been calling for AGI since about the same time. I do respect his ability to just dive headfirst into something even though he basically took wallstreetbets literally but with billions of dollars under management rather than thousands. I'm not sure why we revere having enough confidence to do something badly so much.

129az 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Early 2024 is a bit late, isn't it? He jumped on a bandwagon and his AGI fever ramblings quoted in the submission show that he is just a marketing drone.

LPisGood 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree. If he predicted it using GPT-2 or GPT-3 I’d be quick to yell genius.

recursive 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You sure that's the right number of nines? We'd probably need to look at over a billion earths to find another such 25 year old in that case. Further, if we look at the rest of his body of work, it may temper our estimation of his foresight.

jakebol 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You forgot to add that he was in a relationship and later engaged to the chief of staff at Anthropic while raising and running his fund, but I’m sure he had no access to material non-public information.

dgellow 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And the margin call literally happened during the wedding

glimshe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My 15 year old said the same things in a few paragraphs. But then, he doesn't have the friends from having worked with Sam Bankman-Fried.

bix6 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you really need a 300 page thesis to say in 2024 that AI is going to become a big deal?

chermi an hour ago | parent [-]

Did you make big bets on specific things like memory? He had insight, he made money, didn't have enough experience to handle it well, but still made great returns after his "downfall"

bix6 40 minutes ago | parent [-]

I make bets on specific things yes. A 2024 call on AI isn’t that insightful. But props to him, a 300 page thesis is good marketing!

cmiles8 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well that “foresight” left him to walk right into a total amateur hour cash crunch that would have gotten a junior Wall Street analyst fired… so the evidence of amazing foresight here isn’t great.

Calling the fund “situational awareness” and then demonstrating a complete lack of situational awareness was rather amusing.

mrhottakes an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Looking at a kid in his 20s that says "AI will make infinite money" and then loses all his money:

> It's generational foresight not available to 99.999999999999999999% of 25 year olds.

Vegenoid an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't understand how you can read a thesis that predicts AGI in 2027 (and the subsequent explosion to ASI) and say that it "all ended up becoming true in 2026".

steveBK123 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> generational foresight

His strategy was to trade on MNPI available to him via relationships that no larger fund/bank compliance department would sign off on, in a portfolio no fund/bank risk department would allow.

jdw64 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

However, I think this is a classic example of the category error the OP is talking about. Making accurate predictions isn't necessarily the same thing as asset management. Once you reach that level of fame, people will 100% target and trade against you, and when someone is that well-known, their market positions inevitably get exposed—how could they possibly handle that?

dogmayor an hour ago | parent | next [-]

There are large and famous funds that have lasted despite all that you say. So it is very possible to achieve fame, have your positions known, and have people trade against you, and still not be forced into selling your entire public portfolio to satisfy a margin call.

This is why hedging and neurotic levels of risk-management are necessary. Running a highly levered and highly correlated portfolio is a disaster waiting to happen regardless of whether your overall thesis is correct or not.

askafriend 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's fair and I guess we're about to find out! The thing to appreciate is there's a lot that's unprecedented about all of this. Some of it has to do with Leopold but then there's a whole lot that doesn't. I'll definitely be following along as the story develops over the years...

adastra22 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Did you read TFA? It has lots of examples offered as precedent.

afavour 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> he wrote a 300 page thesis on AI in 2024 that all ended up becoming true in 2026

...no? The essay is literally titled "The Decade Ahead", its predictions have not come true in 2026.

> The AGI race has begun. We are building machines that can think and reason. By 2025/26, these machines will outpace many college graduates. By the end of the decade, they will be smarter than you or I; we will have superintelligence, in the true sense of the word

I'd argue even the 2025/26 part of that isn't true, though the "many" in "many college graduates" makes the claim very difficult to verify.

But even putting all that aside I think it's still a valuable evidence point when discussing "intellectual arrogance". No doubt this 25 year old is very smart when it comes to AI. But there's this belief that if someone is smart at one thing then they're surely smart at everything. Turns out "smart at AI" doesn't automatically translate to "can sensibly manage a $45bn fund".

Aperocky 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> not available to 99.999999999999999999%

There are not enough human 25 years old in history for this many 9s. You had 21 nines, which would only make sense if there were 10 billion billion humans ever and that he is the only one. However, the current estimate is there were 107 billion humans ever alive in history, so your statement is impossible even if the estimate is off by 10000 fold.

autophagian 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Your failure here is that you are using normal math, not Effective Altriusm math. That number should not only include past/current 25 year olds, but also all possible future 25 year olds, including all 25 year olds simulatable by a future powerful AI. In that context, the estimation is quite modest.

27183 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

ha you beat me to it by mere seconds

Aperocky 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You would expect someone following quant trading to have sensitivities to quantity, but alas.

askafriend 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm not writing a technical paper and I refuse to write like what you're suggesting. It's just a rhetorical device!

jcranmer 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It's just a rhetorical device!

It's a rhetorical device that I have yet to see used to good effect. The kind of rhetorical device that undercuts the argument rather than strengthens it.

27183 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

your claim would be suspect with only 1 nine, given the evidence. Like, the guy failed spectacularly.

askafriend 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You're so caught up in irrelevant details like a rhetorical device that you've missed that this guy's fund is up 80% for the year and his investors are having a GREAT year. Worth reflecting on.

jayd16 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of sci-fi authors have published in their 20s.

gloryjulio 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not sure if that's true. Tons of r/wallstreetbets redditors did the same.

skrebbel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Appreciate the context

27183 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> 99.999999999999999999% of 25 year olds

18 decimal places... goddamn that's more than you get on a computer usually. We must be counting 25 year olds that won't even be born for millenia.

malfist 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It includes the multiverse

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
guardiangod 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You missed the years long work at FTX under Sam Bank Friedman all the way to FTX's bankruptcy.

3737488484 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

Quarrel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

FWIW, I quite enjoyed this write up of it, and the state of AI investment at the moment. It doesn't entirely dwell on the blowup, but I found it worth the read:

https://xcancel.com/porterstansb/status/2083606266388029691

(I also enjoyed the meandering in to Amex and Wells & Fargo's founding stories)

chermi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah. And he made good returns even after the downfall everyone was so gleeful about.

skrebbel 24 minutes ago | parent [-]

Returns? So soon in the lifecycle of a VC fund?

tiznow 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's better than performance art, it's something you couldn't write.

skrebbel 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

This holds for all good performance art. I suck at writing in general and I'd suck even more at writing the scenario and support materials for performance art.

(I mean sure from sibling comments I get that this is, in fact, not performance art but you gotta admit that if it were it'd be damn good!!!)

whatever1 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Trading like forecasting cannot be evaluated. They could be right in a different reality. We just experience one realization of the uncertainty.

jayd16 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Make sure to put that front and center on the website next time.

whatever1 an hour ago | parent [-]

I am always right. In some universe.

tcp_handshaker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> Wait is this real? Did a random 25yo get 45B under management because he got some interviews after getting fired from OpenAI?

They though they would laugh all the way to the bank...but that laugh was already the problem...

"We Need To Talk About Leopold" - https://youtu.be/rE75WvOtcu8

luke5441 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And before OpenAI, he was at FTX.

dgellow an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not FTX the exchange, he was working at the FTX Future Fund which is part of the philanthropic foundation SBF created as part of his effective altruism commitment (the same SBF who also provided $500M to help Anthropic get started btw, just a few weeks before going bust).

As a side note, it’s pretty insane how many people of the AI industry have a relationship to effective altruism

luke5441 an hour ago | parent [-]

Looking into the relationship a bit, I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL

> Gebru and Torres argue that these ideologies should be treated as an "interconnected and overlapping" group with shared origins. They claim these constitute a movement that allows its proponents to use the threat of human extinction to justify expensive or detrimental projects and consider it pervasive in social and academic circles in Silicon Valley centered on artificial intelligence. As such, the acronym is sometimes used to criticize a perceived belief system associated with Big Tech.

adastra22 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why is anyone from FTX being trusted with money…