| ▲ | plantain 3 hours ago |
| The program has so far spent $2.5bn, and installed 11GWh. That's just the cost of the subsidy (~30% discount), not the cost of what home owners tipped in. Utility scale batteries are now at ~$66m/GWh, or about ~$726m equivalent. It does not make sense for everyone to be doing a bespoke installation inside their own home. It is ridiculously inefficient. We are a society. We don't build our own roads, water, grid, schools, hospitals. Why have we suddenly decided to DIY our own redundant power sources? (A: failure of governance) |
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| ▲ | matt2000 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Fair points, but you are glossing over important issues: 1. You are using the current point-in-time cost for batteries as compared to a subsidy spent over years while battery costs were dropping. 2. You do not include transmission upgrades and costs to distribute energy from centralized batteries. 3. You ignore the benefits and efficiencies of having generation and batteries distributed and close to the source of demand. It also increases resilience of the grid. 4. You assume the political will was there for government and taxpayers to bear the full cost burden of development of the batteries. |
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| ▲ | plantain 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | 1. The subsidy was fixed per kWh at a level that has always been vastly above utility scale BESS.
2. Power usage is flatlining. There is no reason to need transmission upgrades for BESS. Successful projects are colocated at retiring generators, or at existing major grid terminus.
3. Are those benefits worth 4x the price? Noting again, that's 4x the subsidy, not even the actual installed cost which is closer to 8-12x.
4. It would have been cheaper even at just the subsidy rate. | | |
| ▲ | matt2000 an hour ago | parent [-] | | re: Power usage is flatlining... Where are you getting that? The 2026 AEMO plan says: "Electricity consumption is expected to almost double over the coming decades, driven by population and economic growth, electrification across homes, businesses and industry and the emergence of new large loads such as data centres." https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/files/major-publications/isp... |
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| ▲ | pydry 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | also ignoring that Australia is building snowy 2 which is the world's largest battery by far, due to be finished in 2027-2028. | | |
| ▲ | plantain 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Are you really holding up Snowy 2 as a success story? We're past 20bn on Snowy 2 now. Run those numbers against grid scale BESS, on both capacity and peak generation and get back to me - 10 years ago it looked good, now it's not favourable. | | |
| ▲ | pydry 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | OK. lots of people confuse a $75-$120 / kWh cell price for grid scale battery installed price, which these days is about $300 / kWh. 1 gigawatt hour of installed BESS therefore at current prices is roughly $300 million. Snowy 2 is 350 gigawatt hours, which would be $105 billion in equivalent batteries which is about $150 billion in Australian dollars, or ~7x cheaper per gwh. |
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| ▲ | skew-aberration 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I agree 100%, this is one of the most inequitable government policies I've ever seen in this country. The numbers are much worse than you make out. The program has spent more than 2.5bn (the projected figure) and we don't know yet how much. The subsidy was closer to 70% for a typical large battery install. The government's own gen cost report would have put grid storage 1.5x ahead on ROI. Note that figures like $66m/GWh are projected costs based on projects starting today, not coming online today. They may not include 'balance of plant'. For better comparison you would have to look at the financials of recently commissioned storage. |
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| ▲ | plantain 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've tried to be as charitable on both sides. As you note the real subsidy is higher, but the owner contributions are still high, and the projected cost of the program is now closer to 7.5Bn. It's pure middle-class welfare. | | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | For 2N government dollars, the program gets 3N home battery. Grid is 2x more efficient by their own accounting. Therefore, we could have gotten 4N grid storage. This is not comparable to the home solar programs - which I understand to 'enticed' more private investment. Simply buying votes and lying to the public. I feel for the renters who paid their taxes and never saw a cent. |
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| ▲ | alexpotato 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There was an article a few years back about how homeowners in Hawaii were buying solar panels to try to get cheaper power. Then the local power company realized that as well and started shifting to solar with the net result that it became cheaper to buy the power company supplied electricity than from your own solar. |
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| ▲ | vladgur 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That doesn’t sound like Hawaii This does “ A Solar Boom So Successful, It's Been Halted
Photovoltaics proved so successful in Hawaii that the local utility, HECO, has instituted policies to block further expansion” https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-solar-boom-so-s... As of today Hawai’i rates are at $0.40+ per kWh | | |
| ▲ | naishoya an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | THIS. I don't live in Hawaii anymore, but when I last did and HELCO was still allowing homeowners to participate their home solar with a grid tie they had the following limitations: no matter what your balance of power production to consumption differential was, there was no discount for a base 'connection fee' - essentially the lease of the meter. They would sell each household kWh at full price, and 'purchases' daytime production at a wholesale rate derived from a mainland commercial grid interconnect rate, the difference was about one order of magnitude, and their meter had the ability to cap output from the panels, such that no matter what the purchase price of excess power would never exceed the consumed power price, and every month there was at least $80ish in connection fee. This kept most of my neighbors from either, a) considering solar for the household, or b) deciding to stay disconnected from the grid when the house finished installation. My friends with new houses being built mauka (up-country) also faced a Many-KiloUSD per pole cost to run lines along the road to new housing areas, and if even you could get everyone on a road to pitch in for a new run it often was more economical for everyone to just DIY their own selection of solar, wind, generator, batteries and it still was less expensive than just running the lines, even before accounting for kWh costs. Even in towns down closer to the coast, it still made more economic sense to use wind+solar and a batteries with a backup generator than to pay for HELCO's power... which also came in with such erratic voltage and irregular wave profiles that it routinely toasted anything sensitive, from refrigerators, televisions, washing machines, you name it... which careful reading of the manufacturer warranties shows that for most main brands they specifically exclude Hawaii from any guarantee of service or replacement. Now, HECO services a different island than where I lived, and the situation is widely variable in each of the islands, with completely different rules and operating practices. So that's not to say my observations have any validity outside of Big Island, and some limited observation from friends' ohana in Maui. When we lived in town, it was necessary to put UPS inline for everything more complicated than a toaster oven, and when we moved way up mauka to our little goat farm, the answer was solar and at first golf cart batteries, then a whole stack of recycled/reconditioned submarine iron core 1.2v cells and some very heavy duty cycle inverters; combined with extremely conservative electricity consumption: about 10~15 kWh per week. One of the benefits of using all LED red lighting at night, and living at elevation to never need A/C, plus methane digester powered by goat waste for refrigeration and mostly using a rocket stove for cooking with guava wood. and no TV, no tower PC, hand crank wringer for laundry like most mainland peoples great-grandparents and line dry on the patio where the rain cant soak them and the wind might get them dry before too long. Its not an easy or soft way to live, but in many ways my wife and I wish we sere still there. | |
| ▲ | pocksuppet an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Do they block off-grid installations? Some places do. |
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| ▲ | otherme123 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which translates to "the local power company was knowingly using ineficient sources to steal from their clients, until their clients did something about it and forced them be efficient". | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the net result that it became cheaper to buy the power company supplied electricity than from your own solar. I'm sure this is the way you remember it, and maybe even the way it was explained in that article but if you bought a solar panel the sunlight to power it is free, so your electricity from the panel is free. You're not "buying" that power and so the commercial supply can't be "cheaper". Now if I've paid $5000 for a product which makes me electricity for free and then later you offer me the same amount of electricity for just $4000 you could say yours is cheaper, but, er, I already bought that $5000 product, I'm already out $5000 and my electricity is free, yours is not actually cheaper now. What we're seeing here is just "Did you know solar panels have become cheaper over time?" | | |
| ▲ | nemomarx an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | If you have to pay a connection fee for having the solar panel hooked up to your houses grid, I could see it ending up cheaper to disconnect the panels and sell them back tbh | |
| ▲ | sidewndr46 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure, if you live somewhere you own the power you generate. I don't own the power I generate if I had solar. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't understand. If you owned a solar calculator you'd have to pay somebody because you made power ? Huh ? We've discussed before on HN the fact that the "Lets own everything" capitalists apparently didn't realise they needed to own the Sun and Wind (modulo Simpsons cartoon) but I guess maybe yours do? How much do you pay for a sunny day, on average, and if you won't pay do you get clouds or what ? |
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| ▲ | figbert 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Installing on people’s houses isn’t just about install costs (the numbers for which above I highly doubt). There’s a huge additional benefit, and cost reducing factor, that comes from installing storage where grid connection already exists. Instead of building out battery farms in the desert and piping the power into urban centers over cables like a power plant, you can install capacity and run it essentially p2p. This is a big deal. I’ll add that we’re not DIYing this. Professionals are manufacturing and installing these at scale. Also, though I’m not sure how it works outside the US, the government doesn’t build the grid. Energy providers and utilities are also companies. |
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| ▲ | plantain 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | We already have the "power pipes", from the power plants. > Professionals are manufacturing and installing these at scale.
A couple of electricians doing 20kWh (average install size) once per day, with an individual inverter, gateways, etc. is not at scale, by any means of the word. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Those are transmission lines. Utilities do need to upgrade distribution lines and transformers for areas with large-scale adoption of EVs, heat pumps or other increases in electrical load. Localized battery and solar installations can help defer these infrastructure upgrades, if done by planning and consultation with the utility. | |
| ▲ | mrngld 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, we do not in fact have the "power pipes". Those "pipes" have capacity limits. Those "pipes" and getting them approved and built in the US is a key limiting factor that throttles... pretty much everything. Yes, it holds up data centers, but also I've heard 'green' energy advocates complaining for decades about how difficult it is to get the permits and approvals to get wind and solar facilities hooked up, they're holding up nuclear plants, they're holding all kinds of things up. There's also something to be said for distributed production and storage. We don't all live in ultra-compact cities. I agree apartment buildings don't need to be playing this game. But Australia (and the US) are extremely dispersed relative to Europe, for example. There should, in theory, be resilience in distributed production and storage that grid managers could call upon to help manage point failures. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > We already have the "power pipes", from the power plants. And when they break, many people lose power. Ukraine's seen some of the benefits of hyper-local generation over centralized production. | |
| ▲ | marcosdumay 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A thousand electricians doing 20kWh installations every week-day add up to 5GWh/year. There are probably more than a thousand electricians in Australia. |
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| ▲ | thelastgallon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A distributed grid is a resilient grid. Legacy grid needs massive transmission infrastructure. Solar + batteries at home have zero real estate costs, zero transmission infrastructure costs. Keeps a lot of people employed. |
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| ▲ | otherme123 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Decentralization might be dollar-inefficient, but brings resiliency and redundancy to the system. The whole internet infrastructure would be probably cheaper with more centralization. Data backups are also ridiculously innefficient dollar-wise. |
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| ▲ | skew-aberration 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | These systems are not truly redundant in that sense though - as they are intended to be centrally coordinated (the manufacturer provides a web API). So they are potentially vulnerable to e.g cyberwarfare. |
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| ▲ | rglullis 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not all inneficiencies are bad. If the cost to build ridiculously redundant systems is low enough, the system overall is more robust to black swan events than any central planner could ever be. |
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| ▲ | jgilias 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My neighbour has a battery installation because where I live they subsidise both - the panels and the battery. In the event of a power outage he can keep running his house for ~3 days if being somewhat frugal with consumption. And the battery thing even looks kind of neat. |
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| ▲ | skybrian 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It makes enough sense in rural areas for a Vermont power company to lease batteries to residential customers. They avoid having to do expensive upgrades that way: https://electrek.co/2026/07/28/vermonts-largest-energy-sourc... |
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| ▲ | sanderjd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Honestly this seems like a pretty good efficiency multiplier for a distributed vs. centralized solution at that scale! |
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| ▲ | ghaff 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sort of. While not really mainstream, there are private roads (and long driveways), wells, and a (limited) amount of home-schooling. Not hospitals obviously as that requires specialized training and equipment. |
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| ▲ | splicebot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Are we a society though? Margaret Thatcher famously said "There's no such thing as society" and a lot of people have been doing their best to make that true. There's no use pretending. Utility scale has a single political point of failure. Batteries in home do not. |
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| ▲ | nickpp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Cost is never the only factor though. Being energy independent and self-sufficient feels awesome. Also whole house backup rocks, together with a smart app showing and optimizing your energy usage. |
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| ▲ | dcan 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is this not free market capitalism? Domestic electricity was too expensive (and I’m assuming producers would rather pass the costs onto consumers rather than spend their own money and build solar/battery plants themselves), so individuals with capital did the cost-benefit analysis and determined that installing solar is cheaper in the long term. This drove the price of electricity down during the day, causing the cost-benefit of home-scale batteries to become positive over a reasonable timescale. Thus, people with capital invested money for a positive ROI over a medium term! The government subsidies level the playing field so it’s not only the upper-class that can benefit from this phenomenon - they are providing equity, not equality. And, cutting out all the middle management waste of the large utility companies, meaning Australians get more electricity for their buck. Modern capitalism is what failed here. The Australian power providers should’ve gone down this route, but (I’m assuming) shareholders would be upset about ROI on the scale of 5-20 years. Homeowners are more reasonable. |
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| ▲ | barney54 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | No. The modern grid has little relation to capitalism. There is some private ownership, but there are massive government barriers to entry and massive regulation of the system. |
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| ▲ | dyauspitr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That’s great value for money! Even with gas peaked plants that would cost roughly $10 billion in the US. They should massively expand this program. |
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| ▲ | nutjob2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The subsidy has the effect of prompting the wealthiest consumers to spend around 2.25x the amount of subsidy on battery installations while reducing the load on the grid, lowering prices for all grid users. Investing in more grid power would require additional grid capacity which would raise the price for all grid users, and with cheap renewables that would be an increasing amount on power bills. |
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| ▲ | mrtesthah 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are still advantages to distributed power generation beyond overcoming governance failures—-microgrids lie somewhere in between and can increase resilience in the face of more severe and unpredictable climate events. |
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| ▲ | boxed 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do you have some citation to back those numbers up? |
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| ▲ | skew-aberration 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Final numbers are not known yet. The Australian government's own 'Gencost' report put grid vs home based storage at 2x as efficient. In this subsidy program, the ratio of private to public money per a battery is about 1:2 (ie 70% subsidy). It was in my own case. Therefore, we would have had more battery storage if the government had just built grid storage. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Having your own battery + inverter setup dramatically reduces the ability for the grid utility to screw you over. Everyone I know has had that happen at one time or another, and it’s extremely common to want home battery just for the degree of ‘power sovereignity’ it grants you. | |
| ▲ | boxed 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It says the subsidy is 30%. You just said it's 70% and that it's 50% in the same sentence. Surely you can give one link to something that backs up anything you said. | | |
| ▲ | skew-aberration 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Everyone in my office paid around 7.5-8.5k AUD for batteries around the 24k mark, so I know this to be the case. I could email you the invoice if you don't believe me xD You can read up on the subsidy itself too - they basically set a cost per kwhr target based on the few bespoke batteries on the market, before it was flooded with cheaper Chinese options. Because it was based on capacity rather than a percentage discount, this caused the effective discount to be much higher than intended at the outset. We don't know the final numbers yet - but government has reforecast for 7 billion for the program's duration, which includes a much smaller subsidy continuing until 2030. I expect it will be close to about 5B spent so far. | |
| ▲ | plantain 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The program is of course much more complex than can be fit in a HN comment, and it has evolved over time. The simplest answer is the government contributes $252/kWh. Approx. 4x the cost if the government funded a utility scale BESS - noting the installed cost of a home battery is 400-1200$/kWh depending on brand/options etc. |
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| ▲ | joering2 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Why have we suddenly decided to DIY our own redundant power sources? That's simple! As per Felon Musk - to sell overhead to electricity providers. Allegedly they will gladly buy energy from you! So with big enough roof, you can just sit home relax and watch TV, while your solar panels make your living. |
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| ▲ | ericmay 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > Why have we suddenly decided to DIY our own redundant power sources? Because government is failing to address these issues? Back in Trumpistan we had some storms roll through my area the other day. Power has been out for some (not me, thankfully) for a couple of days in a major metro. It was a bad storm and I do not fault the crews who are doing hard work out there repairing everything and it takes time. But what the hell are you supposed to do when the power goes out and it takes a few days to get turned back on? Well, spend $10,000 - $20,000 and install your own backup power. Is it inefficient? Sure! Does that matter? Absolutely not. |
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| ▲ | jebarker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yep. Here in Colorado I installed two powerwalls moderately subsidized by the electricity company. It’s not going to save me meaningful amounts of money even in the long term and I would much rather see energy issues solved at a societal level. But our electricity provider is just unable to reliably keep the lights on through winter and wildfire season, I.e. most of the year. Since installing the batteries a couple years ago our home has stayed warm and lit through two multi-day outages when neighbors have had to go stay in a hotel. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Isn't "subsidized by the electricity company" partially fulfilling "at a societal level"? | | |
| ▲ | jebarker an hour ago | parent [-] | | It is, yeah. The condition of the subsidy is that up to 60 times a year the electricity company can pull the power from our batteries to cover higher demand. When I said "at a societal level" I was more imagining solar farms and grid level storage though. | | |
| ▲ | ericmay an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I find this seeming opposition (not from you or on this thread train) to installation of backup systems to be a bit befuddling. Battery backup systems, solar roofs/panels, &c. all effectively add excess capacity and resilience to our existing infrastructure. Aside from something like worrying about China's continued dominance in the space I don't really understand the hang up folks seem to have. Plus in some sense the utilities are regulated by the government but they are private companies. If they're getting out-competed in the market by battery backup systems or other alternatives because of poor performance and high cost, fuck em' they can go out of business. We'll (free market democracies) figure it out. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | ch4s3 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This isn't a federal government issue in the US. Local and state governments dropped the ball here. No one wants to pay what it costs to bury power lines in most locales, and we have a ton of byzantine regulations that make it slow and expensive to add generation capacity. | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What are you going to do when winds rip the solar panels off your roof, or drop a big tree branch on them? Who will you call to repair it? Who will pay for it? How many days will it take? Have fun. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Who will you call to repair it? Solar installer. Or DIY if you're handy. > Who will pay for it? Homeowner or insurance. > How many days will it take? Depends on the availability of installers. Or your skills. I don't know why this is some gotcha. How many times have you had a storm rip your roof off and take down the entire neighborhood's grid? And if that happened would you still live in your house or find temporary accomodation? | |
| ▲ | danans 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | } What are you going to do when winds rip the solar panels off your roof, or drop a big tree branch on them? Who will you call to repair it? Who will pay for it? How is that different than any other weather related house damage? You'd call your insurance company and a licensed contractor. Assuming the house is habitable, you'd still have grid power, or if not you'd move temporarily while repairs took place. | | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker an hour ago | parent [-] | | The point is, if it's your home solar system, damages and repairs are your problem to manage. Localized grid outages might be more common, but you don't have to lift a finger or pay anything extra to get them repaired. The utility just does it. And they start working immediately, even in the middle of the night or on weekends. | | |
| ▲ | danans 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > Localized grid outages might be more common, but you don't have to lift a finger or pay anything extra to get them repaired. I'm not arguing against the electric grid. In fact, I'm an advocate. The grid has different failure and restoration modes than local generation and storage. Unless you actually have no grid connection option at all (or it's prohibitively expensive) it makes a great deal of sense to pair a solar+battery system with the grid. Done smartly, these systems can actually support each other. | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Localized grid outages might be more common, but you don't have to lift a finger or pay anything extra to get them repaired. The utility just does it. Sounds like a good backup option for resilience! |
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