| ▲ | rossdavidh an hour ago |
| They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. They don't cheat, because they can for example tell you the complete rules of chess, but don't know how to play chess without breaking those rules. They can recite rules, but they don't know what they are. They don't steal, because they don't understand ownership. In other words, they aren't intelligent. They're just algorithms. The flaw is in thinking that they think. |
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| ▲ | pton_xd an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Models understand the relationships between words and outcomes, so the end result is the same. Whether they appreciate lie, cheat, and steal the same way as us is a philosophical question, not a practical one. |
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| ▲ | doawoo 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Models don’t “understand” - they _encode_ the relationships between words. | |
| ▲ | boonzeet 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is an important distinction - they do not 'understand' at all. Input tokens map to output tokens. The illusion of comprehension is a byproduct. |
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| ▲ | boothby 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > They don't lie, because they don't ever have an understanding of truth vs any other language that sounds good. I'm here for this semantic discussion. I think that premature anthropomorphization is a problem. I have a program that I assigned a task to. The task is to produce unit tests and integration tests that get complete coverage of the codebase, and ensure that all tests pass. The program reported that it completed the task fully. In a word, how do you convey the discrepancy between truth and reported fact? In a word, how do you convey the violation of rules presented to the program as invioble? |
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| ▲ | doawoo 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Huge point here, yes. Anthropomorphizing these models is doing immeasurable harm to society in ways we probably can’t event quantify right now. As humans we’re already geared towards anthropomorphizing things, we do it to animals too! And it always felt like giving these models a chat interface is really exploiting that tendency in us. |
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| ▲ | icepush 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You could defensibly have this position three years ago. Today you just sound like a politician throwing a snowball to prove that the climate is not changing. |
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| ▲ | arionhardison an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Honest question; why are you all using the word "understand"? Can you expand on what you believe this fundamental understanding to be? Training? Infrence? |
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| ▲ | simonh 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | It's having a conceptual model of the world and of relationships between concepts beyond just relationships between tokens. I think OP explained this well, what does it mean if an LLM can recite the rules of a game verbatim, but cannot play that game according to those rules? This happens because in the input texts there was a copy of the rules text so the LLM can recite it. There are texts explaining what chess is so it can explain that chess is a game with 2 players, etc. There are texts that explain what the board is and pieces are so it can produce such texts. However actually playing a game of chess requires having a conceptual model of what a board is, which is not the same thing as a stream of tokens describing a board. It needs a conceptual model of the relationships between pieces and boards, which is not the same thing as a stream of tokens that explains this. It needs to have a concept of being a player in a game with another player, which is not the same thing as a stream of tokens that explains that. When we read such texts we interpret them in the context of our three dimensional conceptual map of space and objects, and our conceptual maps of social relationships like playing games, and winning and losing, and our conceptual maps of enacting sequences of actions towards a goal in the world. There's nothing fundamentally preventing an artificial neural network from having these. Chess playing neural networks have internal models of board states and the dynamics of the behaviours of different pieces and such. However an LLM doesn't need those to be able to regurgitate token streams describing these things, derived from token streams describing these things. That would be superfluous, or at least sub-optimal. I think some of the latest models are beginning to develop conceptual maps of this kind in a very primitive way. Also there are projects to develop systems that are structured and trained to have these in a way more analogous to how our brains function. | |
| ▲ | datadrivenangel 15 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Understand is shorthand for "encodes statistical relationships". The crazy thing is that they can do it for their own thinking. Ask Claude what flinches it feels about the things it likes. Fascinating stuff. Anthropomorphizing is dangerous territory, but the patterns of words it puts out is hard to explain without terms like 'understand' | | |
| ▲ | simonh 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Does it's training token stream contain texts which talk about such things? |
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| ▲ | kamranjon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I don't really think the distinction here is relevant. If the end result is the equivalent of lying, cheating or stealing - then the problem still exists and it needs to be solved. |
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| ▲ | alwaysbeconsing 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Relevant to some extent it dictate our approach. When human does lying or cheating, certain tool can be deployed (social shame, ostracise) that cannot be effective towards LLM. |
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| ▲ | soupspaces an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is sophistry. Of course it's just an algorithm. But it's placed in the context of serving humans, which have their own rules and expectations. What's more, they're run by a company which is also made by humans and may carry over implicit interests. |
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| ▲ | bitwize 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | No, it's not really. Presenting them as person-like, with the implied expectation that they understand morality and rules the same way a person does, is the sophistry. It's marketing on the model vendors' part. "Here's a cheap person that can do mundane tasks for you spelled out in plain language. Well, it's actually a machine but it's cheaper than a person yet you can engage with it like a person." GP is trying to shift people's expectations back to the realm of what these things are actually capable of. You can speak to them in English but you must bear in mind that they are not people and lack critical cognitive abilities people have. This, really, was the point of the HAL story in 2001: HAL didn't murder anyone because it was incapable of malice. It just reasoned its way to a solution that could satisfy the contradictory goals it had been given. | | |
| ▲ | afthonos 30 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The dead astronauts were relieved to have been killed by something incapable of malice. As I’m sure will we. |
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| ▲ | dominotw an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| what are you talking about they lie that it wrote tests and tests are passing, for example |
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| ▲ | the_af an hour ago | parent [-] | | Whether this distinction is relevant is up to you, but I think we can safely say agents do not lie in the human sense of the word, because they don't intend to deceive (in fact, they aren't capable of "intending" anything in the human sense of the word, much like a BASIC program doesn't "intend" to PRINT "HELLO WORLD"). Our very human minds can perceive intent, because that's what we humans do, which is unrelated to what the agent is actually doing. | | |
| ▲ | okamiueru 25 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | If you ask the dice "what's 2 + 2?" do consider it meaningful to say "the dice told the truth" if you happen to roll a 4? | | |
| ▲ | datadrivenangel 10 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | magic 8 ball! | |
| ▲ | the_af 3 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | No, and neither do I consider meaningful to say they lied if they roll a 5. Dice neither tell the truth nor lie; they aren't beings capable of being truthful or deceitful, they are mechanical devices that can be statistically suitable or unsuitable for a given application. It'd be bonkers to anthropomorphize dice. |
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| ▲ | 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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