| ▲ | kentm an hour ago |
| > I don't understand why a police cruiser can sit in a public space (or even a private one) and write down licence plates and descriptions of passers-by with pen and paper, or record everything around them with dashcams and bodycams for later use, but when it comes to cameras on a pole this would require a warrant. Scale actually matters. Things that are generally OK at a small scale become problematic at larger scales. A single police cruiser writing down license plates isn't able to track you in the same way a huge surveillance network is, and the opportunities for abuse are much lower. |
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| ▲ | fluidcruft an hour ago | parent | next [-] |
| Scale is more about efficiency and cost, though. Plenty of people want more policemen patrolling the streets. |
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| ▲ | abirch 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | If we simply mandated that everyone install an app on their phone so that the government can track them scales very well. The people without the app would probably be criminals, | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't follow that... posting a police officer in everyone's house is pretty much a Third and Fourth Amendment violation and not primarily constrained by finances. |
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| ▲ | autoexec 18 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Spying on the American public shouldn't be cheap or efficient. We shouldn't abandon our freedom to make the fearful feel better. | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | People either have privacy in public or they do not, but I don't know anyone who seriously claims that there's an expectation of privacy on public roads. What freedom are you talking about? | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > People either have privacy in public or they do not Thankfully, the law isn't as overly simplistic and black and white as that. It'd be very stupid if it were. We have the ability maintain a general principal like "there's no expectation to privacy in public" and still prohibit certain things that are deemed harmful, like taking upskirt photos of people while they are in public spaces. | | |
| ▲ | fluidcruft 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > nuance for me but not for thee If you're going to argue platitudes from altitude, you don't get to retreat to the comfort of exceptions. |
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| ▲ | vonneumannstan an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Scale actually matters Is this actually born out in Court Cases? Warrantless Surveillance by NSA seems to be blanket legal for example. |
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| ▲ | eatsyourtacos an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| But then scale doesn't actually matter. If you have a problem with something that "everyone does" then you should have a problem with something only a few people do. |
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| ▲ | JK-Swizzle 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | By my understanding, this would be similar to the situation with marketing calls. In the US is it legal for a human to call anyone and market to them. But due to issues from scale, it is illegal for either a program to make the call, or a prerecorded message to be played. To me, that is precedent in US law that computerized methods of executing human tasks do not fall under the same rules. | |
| ▲ | falsemyrmidon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There hasn't been an explicit ruling from the supreme Court that applies here, but there are indications that they would have ruled that the fourth amendment applied. They've explicitly avoided closing the door on that possibility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v.Jones(2012) > Also left unanswered was the broader question surrounding the privacy implications of a warrantless use of GPS data without a physical intrusion – as might occur, for example, with the electronic collection of GPS data from wireless service providers or factory-installed vehicle tracking and navigation services.[27] The Court left these matters to be decided in some future case, saying, "It may be that achieving the same result through electronic means, without an accompanying trespass, is an unconstitutional invasion of privacy, but the present case does not require us to answer that question." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpenter_v._United_States > Ultimately, in Carpenter the court determined that the third-party doctrine could not be extended to historical cell site location information (CSLI). Instead, the Court compared "detailed, encyclopedic, and effortlessly compiled" CSLI records to the GPS information at issue in United States v. Jones, recognizing that both forms of data accord the government the ability to track individuals' past movements.[24] Furthermore, the Court noted that CSLI could pose even greater privacy risks than GPS data, as the prevalence of cellphones could accord the government "near perfect surveillance" of an individual's movements. Accordingly, the Court ruled that, under the Fourth Amendment, the government must obtain a search warrant in order to access historical CSLI records.[1] Of course there are no guarantees on how they'd rule today, but in the past they've ruled that scale and ease of access and compilation are significant enough to mean that fourth amendment protections should apply. | |
| ▲ | Xirdus an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not about many people vs. few people. It's about a single person doing little with a lot of effort vs. a single person doing an enormous amount with minimal effort. | | |
| ▲ | eatsyourtacos 34 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Why didn't you have a problem with a single person doing little with a lot of effort? All I'm saying is it should have been a problem at that point.. not just because it's easy now to do it at a high scale. | | |
| ▲ | Xirdus 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I didn't have a problem because the damage that can be caused by doing a little is very limited, and if someone puts too much effort it becomes very visible and they're put under extra scrutiny, preventing them from doing more harm. Also because outlawing standing on a street and taking notes is a very slippery slope. | |
| ▲ | nkrisc 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because the outcome is meaningfully different when every citizen can be passively tracked at all times versus a few cops sitting around writing down license plates. The former is massively damaging to our rights, the latter is almost useless and thus barely a problem worth talking about. The difference in scale matters. |
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| ▲ | kazinator 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | WarmWash an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Great, now rigidly define scale... |
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| ▲ | saveferris an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | SCOTUS has (sort of) done this in the recent Chatrie case.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/25pdf/25-112_0am4.pdf It's obviously different in that Chatrie was about google location data, and there actually was a warrant. SCOTUS ruled that warrant was too broad since it captured everyone in that location, not a specific person(s). Constitutional scholars have pointed out the ALPR are next in line to face challenges based on the same principles as Chatrie - LEO can get a warrant for a specific person(s) to search but cannot search the entire universe. That would not prevent ALPRs from existing, but it would require a warrant to search them. Which seems reasonable and completely in line with the 4th amendment. Edit: words/spelling | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash an hour ago | parent [-] | | OK sure, but do they now also need a warrant to look at their own footage from their body cam, or their dashcam? What about the camera on the side of the municipal building? Compelling parties to give up data is different than looking at your own data. And it is firmly established that recording and reviewing footage in public space is totally fine. So we are back to square one...How do we define scale such that a police camera on a police car is OK, but a police camera on every corner is not. Or that individuals can record in public but police cannot. | | |
| ▲ | connicpu 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Sometimes the law is vibes, SCOTUS will probably create a set of tests where lower courts will have to look at how many points it hits and decide whether it's over the line on a case by case basis. | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know what the philosophical answer is, but the real answer is that we don't, the supreme Court does. |
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| ▲ | LPisGood an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don’t need to do that, actually. The legal system in the United States is highly capable of sussing out descriptions like “undue or unreasonable”. | |
| ▲ | devin an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don’t need to rigidly define scale to demonstrate at a common sense level that there is a major difference between a couple cops writing down your license plate and a nationwide network of them entering your plate into a searchable ledger. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash an hour ago | parent [-] | | ...so we only have 5 cameras, one at each entrance to our town. Five cameras is less than what the number of police on duty are using. | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The number of cameras matters much less than what those cameras are being used for. If police body cam footage was being indiscriminately scanned for any and all license plate data and all of that data was being fed into a national database which was being routinely accessed and abused that would also be problem. As far as I know, that isn't the case. | |
| ▲ | pixl97 19 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Given that in the majority of places police are typically busy doing things like writing speeding tickets and going on calls that leaves a lot less time for them to sit still for an 8 hour shift and record every single plate they can see 24/7/365. Those 5 cameras would represent 15 to 20 officers which is a huge taskforce no matter how large the department. |
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| ▲ | RHSeeger an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The point at which we decide it's dangerous to the safety, freedom, and happiness of citizens. Every law we have is a balance between "provides good" and "imposes bad" - and we have to adjust where that balance lies on an ongoing basis as things (technology) change. | |
| ▲ | incorporeal an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s impossible to “rigidly” define words like “chair” when faced with someone who’s committed to demonstrating ways you’ve failed to do it. Luckily we never need to do that with words for them to be useful, even in legal contexts. | |
| ▲ | chucksta an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How many man hours could the department in question realistically dedicate to the investigation without the technology | |
| ▲ | morkalork an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Scale does matter. Take bacterial infections for example, there's a tipping of scale on the way to full blown sepsis |
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| ▲ | t-3 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] |
| It's not about scale, it's about oversight. A warrant puts a lock on the data until the request is approved. Leaving it wide open is the reason we have constant news stories about police being arrested for stalking people. Nobody wants to limit the police's ability to investigate crimes, but we do want them to use their power to investigate crimes, not to stalk their baby mama, crush, rival, etc. I fully understand and accept your point that there is no real difference between a cop watching and the cop setting (or hiring) a camera to watch, and I even believe that the more data available the more humanity benefits, and that a total absence of privacy as we know it is inevitable, I think we are not there yet culturally, so strictly requiring warrants for police to access these systems is desirable. |
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| ▲ | rileymat2 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Nobody wants to limit the police's ability to investigate crimes. This is not true of privacy advocates, they do want to limit the ability to fish for circumstantial evidence that targets innocent people and causes suspicion. |
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