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Y-bar 12 hours ago

If we ever manage to halt this accelerating crisis we should seriously consider a modern-day equivalent of the Nuremberg trials. Thousands upon thousands needlessly dead, https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/08/1152766 (from 2024)

halfmatthalfcat 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The complicit parties of climate change are so wide you would probably have to try thousands and thousands of people across most of the developed world. The cohort is probably so large that it’s more a reflection of society generally than the malicious acts of a few.

Y-bar 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Got to start somewhere. Let's start at the top and work ourselves down. If we could do it with over 100 000 persons back then, we could do it again.

> But while in West Germany and united Germany between 1946 and 2005, cases were brought against 140,000 individuals

https://www.timesofisrael.com/historian-examines-germanys-mi...

> British military courts carried out proceedings against 1,085 persons

> About forty-five additional trials were held against an unknown number of accused. [...] In all, French occupation courts passed 2,107 sentences [...]

> [I]n Poland alone 16,819 Germans were sentenced [...]

> In Czechoslovakia, about 16,000 German nationals received sentences. Exact figures are not available.

https://digitallibrary.un.org/nanna/record/627806/files/A_80...

bsian 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Oh believe me, there is a part of the political aisle which would be more than happy to put millions of people in forced labour camps, especially if they are wealthy. Any excuse is a good excuse.

bothers 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

People know who were salivating at the idea of devaluing labor while cutting social welfare programs, creating a pool of cheap labor too desperate to negotiate; these people now feel safe openly showing contempt and cruelty.

athrowaway3z 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It strikes me that historically whenever one extremist side decides to pull the trigger and goes for a cult-of-personality power grab (because this is not a left/right exclusive thing); the really delusional stuff starts when those already in power trigger a vicious cycle of paranoia.

forestrywat 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Nonsense. Anyone who wants forced labor camps is a fascist. I don't care what they call themselves. Once you stop caring about wellbeing for everyone you stop being a leftist. (Which is your insinuation.)

Also, there is more than one political aisle. The left (who broadly want to redistribute wealth) is distinct from democrats (who are capitalists) is distinct from the various parts of the GOP.

cduzz 11 hours ago | parent [-]

The US Constitution, specifically the 13th amendment, allows:

  Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall be duly convicted, shall exist within the United STates or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
So in fact, forced labor camps are totally legal and common in the United States. There are lots of private companies which operate these prison / factory systems and are quite profitable (unsurprisingly), such as NYSE:GEO.

All governments "redistribute wealth" friend, not just the left or right or up or down.

It all depends on which side of the bars you live on, amirite?

rimunroe 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Do you think the left broadly supports prison labor or that carveout in the 13th Amendment? Personally I've never seen a leftist voice any feelings on them other than contempt.

halfmatthalfcat 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't even need bars, "subsidies" are just another word for redistribution.

forestrywat 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You ain't disagreeing. Anyone who wants or engages in forced labor is fascist. Sounds like you found an example of that in the US. Yep. Many such cases.

Ekaros 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Would opposing nuclear energy qualify as such action? The emission difference was well known and fully scientifically provable at time.

uecker 12 hours ago | parent [-]

No, because nuclear energy is not a cost effective measure against climate change. Solar is.

scottLobster 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If climate change is indeed an existential threat, then by definition nuclear is cost-effective.

And at any rate, why not both?

Y-bar 11 hours ago | parent [-]

We do not have infinite resources. Committing 7-11 years and countless billions to build a NPP leads to those funds and other resources to be unavailable elsewhere.

Each wind farm, each set of solar panels, each battery storage will begin to pay dividends immediately as each one is finished. While the huge plant will be nothing-nothing-nothing-... for years upon years.

Builders, engineers, capital, and such is better suited to be investing in other sources of energy.

melling 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That’s exactly what people said 10 years ago…and 10 years before that.

Listen to Ken Griffin explain why we need nuclear.

https://youtube.com/shorts/yu1UJ1JPjpw?is=etcYMpudQPZRZQQw

Y-bar 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Exactly the reason NPP will not save us, no matter how much I (and you, probably?) like it. All the numbers are still better for other solutions.

melling 7 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s how we got to 2026 and we still haven’t reached peak coal.

uecker 5 hours ago | parent [-]

We haven't reached peak coal because we did not start developing renewables earlier. We did waste a huge amount of resources in nuclear in the past, which still never became cheap enough. That we now see a transition away from fossil fuels in large parts of the word is thanks to wind and solar becoming very cheap.

tancop 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

skeeter2020 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Solar maybe NOW is, but this isn't a 5 or even 10 year old problem. And cost effective compared to what? We'll consider sending people to Mars to save humanity but reactors are "too expensive"?

uecker 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Renewables is more economical than nuclear, so investing in nuclear is a waste of resources. This is also why nobody does it. And no, nobody who hasn't lost their marbles is seriously considering sending people to Mars to save humanity.

12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
melling 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We should start with all the people on HN who told us we didn’t need nuclear power.

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=nuclear+climate+change

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Start 11 years ago and go backwards

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateEnd=1439337600&dateRange=custom&...

user43928 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

On the topic of thousands needlessly dead, look at the UN's suggestions:

Useless yapping about opening windows at night, protecting the vulnerable, limiting global warming to 1.5C, and not drinking caffeine.

Is any of this "Call to Action" actually actionable?

Obviously not; and it is pathetic.

What should be actioned:

- remove regulatory hurdles to AC installation

- mandate such installation in residences that otherwise reach unbearable temperatures

- make funds available to subsidize the installation or train more workers for AC installation

That would 'protect the vulnerable'.

Talking about opening windows at night or climate change does nothing, and is performative only.

ragequittah an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The UN suggestions [1] are pretty unambiguous.

"Despite these drawbacks, AC remains crucial to protect populations at increased risk from high temperatures, as well as for refrigerating essential medicines and other health-protecting technologies. In the absence of other options, AC – or another equally effective active cooling technology – should be available to those who need it most as if it were a medical necessity."

[1] https://mb.cision.com/Public/15083/4360202/b9c9bce2cff90dee....

tonyedgecombe 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Big AC strikes again.

justin66 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think we can all agree that if we just stop talking about climate change, maybe it will go away.

user43928 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Do you propose climate action with effects that we will see in decades, if not centuries, is going to save the vulnerable who are currently dying by the thousands?

I do not think that you believe so.

How is it acceptable that the actionable solution is entirely ignored in favor of performative speech?

atoav 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes and: doing things that fight the cause of the warming?

user43928 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Sure, but this should be an afterthought here.

You cannot talk about thousands dying today, neglect to mention the actionable solution, and talk only about climate action which will help on a time frame of decades to centuries.

atoav 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I grew up in the 90s and there was a book in climate in my shelf that talked about thousands dying today, nearly three decades back. At some point we should stop pretending this is a new and surprising danger and start treating it as the risk we willingly steered ourselves into.

If you live next to a road and every other month a car crashed through your living room wall you'd probably fix the root cause after the first time it happened. If you are clever you fixed it even before it occurs. What you would not do is only deal with the damage caused month for month and pretend there is no need to address the root cause.

The reason why many pretend our only option is handing out band aids while the blade keeps spinning, is because it is hard to imagine anything else, if your salary depends on you not addressing the problem.

It feels more and more like watching a bus driver playing chicken against a solid, immovable concrete wall. It is obvious who wins, the only question is into which directions the scrap explodes most, while the driver eyes for the ejector seat. And all the kids pretend driving into the wall is the only reasonable option.

It is possible for humanity to create unsurvivable conditions in our earths atmosphere. Should we do that if there is enough profit in it? If not, where would you draw the line and how would you set/enforce the limits?

user43928 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Let me also invoke an analogy:

After a record year of traffic casualties, I suggest to remove regulation that commonly prevents installing seat belts in your car, mandate the presence of seat belts, and subsidize retrofitting older cars.

Instead, politicians talk at length about better education in primary school promoting safe driving later in life. Additionally they recommend to pay attention while driving, and they call this an "Action plan" to make driving safe. No word about seat belts.

You respond to my proposal, saying that seat belts are merely a band aid, that I pretend they are our only option, and that we better fix the root cause before an accident occurs.

When then someone talks about the thousands upon thousands needlessly dead while ignoring the existence of seat belts we could install today, it just drives me furious.

atoav 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Great, you sucessfully showcased the idea that analogies can be bent around till they no longer reflect the scientifically measurable reality.

So again:

It is possible for humanity to create unsurvivable conditions in our earths athmosphere.

1. Should we create it if there is enough profit in it? Y/N

2. If not, where would you draw the line and how would you set/enforce the limits?

If your answer is Yes to (1) you are in a suicidal, planet killing cult. If your answer is No, you realize the simple fact there are limits to what can be done in a limited space. But then you have to draw a line and find a mechanism even if you don't like it from an ideological standpoint. And that is what I would be really, honestly be interested in.

sn9 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would simply not sacrifice hundreds of thousands of the most vulnerable (in Europe alone!) for unnecessary performative bullshit and let people install AC while massively subsidizing solar/wind/hydro/nuclear/etc.

atoav 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah yeah, the myth that a society can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Do you really belive we can't both address the root causes and install AC?

Which other things do you believe a society can't do at the same time? Taxes and waste managment? Breathing and thinking?

sn9 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I think you misunderstood me lol.

I'm saying we can easily do both.

The only obstacle is morons.

nozzlegear 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> At some point we should stop pretending this is a new and surprising danger and start treating it as the risk we willingly steered ourselves into.

And then what?

atoav 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Either accept it and perish or mitigate it obviously? What would you propose?

nozzlegear 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What's interesting to me is that both of those options – accepting and perishing, or mitigating – would look no different than what we're doing right now. We've made remarkable progress with renewable energy since 2000 (my own state generates almost 70% of its energy from wind). The US isn't part of the climate accords, but the country is still embracing renewable energy at a breakneck pace despite the current admin's attempts to derail it. We need only compare our current emissions to those from 20 years ago to see the difference.

So what I propose is that we've already accepted it, and wringing our hands saying "if only you'd all repent your ways and admit you were wrong by ignoring Al Gore!" might feel cathartic, but ultimately wouldn't result in much change if people did, indeed, truly repent.

bsian 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The thousands dying are just a means to an end. They don't really care about them.

ballsac 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

sam_lowry_ 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Satoshi would be first in line?

jandrewrogers 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

AI and bitcoin, regardless of what one thinks of them, have made negligible contributions to climate change. It is below the noise floor relative to other major industrial and commercial sources of atmospheric CO2.

Virtually all of the current conditions were in motion before bitcoin and AI were even a thing.

atoav 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure. But you have to weigh any application relative to (1) how useful it is and (2) how easy it would be to rely on a carbon-neutral alternative.

And I would argue the usefulness of bitcoin is negative from the viewpoint of a free society.

AI is to a certain degree a different story, but also there it depends what you're doing.

We live in a thin atmospheric skin around the planet, and that skin has a finite volume. If earth was the size of an apple, the atmosphere is thinner than the Apple's skin in proportion.

Pretending we can do whatever we like for infinitly long inside an finite volume is completely unhinged. The financial and political elites, who some frame as the true geniuses point to technological solutions that are always "just around the corner" for the past decades with some of them even eying to leave the planet behind entirely.

All of that while we know how to address the issue.

tancop 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> the usefulness of bitcoin is negative from the viewpoint of a free society

if you mean PoW mining instead of crypto in general then maybe. ethereum uses about as much power as a small village in europe so it should never be a target for climate action.

the public benefit of blockchains is real and it comes from the fact that no one controls them and they let users ignore the law. thats the part governments dont like. corporations also dont like it even if they work in the industry, coinbase and binance started their own chains so they would have full control over the way they evolve.

crypto is a cypherpunk/anarchist technology that got hijacked by investors to sell their scam coins and fake decentralized web services. without it your only option for buying things that are illegal in your country (weed, abortion pills, guns, hacking tools) is sending cash in paper mail or using some complicated scheme where you have to trust third parties. i think thats worth some tax evasion.

atoav 6 hours ago | parent [-]

No. The societal impact of crypto currencies is net-negative.

I know the original idea. In 2009 I bought coffee using Bitcoin. I had to wait 30 minutes till it went through despite using a fee that back then mirrored what PayPal would take. Then I knew: OK this is not going to be used as a cash replacement.

Then it became clear that it was used as a way to pay for illegal shit on the internet, be it drugs, botnets or services of questionable ethical value. Of course also to speculate, to launder money, to blackmail, to extract ransom, to run ponzi schemes or rug pulls, which became a big driver by people who wanted to get the wealth without having to put in the legwork.

And these are still the main drivers behind crypto currencies today by a wide margin. So yes: Net-negative. Prove me wrong.

nprateem 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Opinion stated as fact

vonneumannstan 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Its a well trod problem: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511...

Not exactly background noise but totally incomparable to the normal CO2 outputs of major nations like the US or China. I.e. ~20 Million Tons CO2 vs 4 Trillion and 13 Trillion Tons respectively.

tensor 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, excessive fossil fuel use is the cause by an immense margin. It's completely dominated by commercial shipping (boats), followed by planes. Then I think it may actually be gas from cattle before cars. Bitcoin and AI are so recent and still relative to everything else small.

othello 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is completely incorrect. Aviation contributes 2.5% of global emissions (but is terrible on a per capita basis, as only around 10% of the world's population travels on any given year). Global shipping accounts for 2.3% of global human-made emissions [1].

In transport emissions, passenger vehicles dominate by far (with around 12% of global GHG emissions), even more so in developed countries. Then freight by road with 7.5% of total emissions.

Maritime shipping is actually the least carbon intensive way to transport goods over long distances by at least two orders of magnitude [2].

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-transport

[2] https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg3/transport/06_figure_8-6/

tao_oat 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Electricity (including heating) is actually the single biggest source of greenhouse gas emissions, but transport is indeed number 2: https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-sector

Followed by agriculture & manufacturing.

12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
esafak 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is that so? Too bad nuclear civilian ships are not common. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion

nradov 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Widespread use of nuclear power for civilian merchant shipping is a non-starter. It's simply too expensive to train and pay enough qualified nuclear engineers. The US Navy barely manages this for a few dozen nuclear powered vessels with a huge budget and limited concern for cost effectiveness.

Plus there are the security concerns. Every civilian nuclear power plant has armed guards on duty around the clock. Those guards have to also be trained and paid. Many foreign countries have laws against bringing weapons into their ports.

If we want to reduce CO2 emissions from merchant ships then use nuclear or renewable power on shore to manufacture carbon neutral synthetic liquid fuel. Use that to run the ship engines.

vel0city 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I really feel like if the US really wanted to support US shipbuilding (like what the Jones act was supposed to do) it would subsidize building a fleet of nuclear shipping boats.

Lots of manufacturing projects, lots of related industries boosted, a renewed investment in nuclear engineering bringing a lot of nuclear job experience, and a way to potentially dig deeper into the backbone of global trade again.

scottLobster 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I love the theory, but the security concerns around nuclear anything are a big deal when we're talking ships that sail around the world.

Imagine if even one of the tankers hit in the strait of Hormuz was nuclear.

AngryData 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It would have sunk to the bottom and been of no immediate concern. The benefit of nuclear reactors on boats is that you can drown it out at anytime. The only real concern is a nuclear ship getting beached and not having the passive failsafe of sinking underwater.

vel0city 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would Iran be as likely to have hit one of these ships if the result was potentially a nuclear meltdown close to their shoreline? It would pretty radically change the costs to them for such an attack, wouldn't it?

Ekaros 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If you sink nuclear ship you won't get nuclear meltdown. You have enough thermal mass to cool down anything if you are underwater. Some level of loss of nuclear material would happen. But meltdown is not something that would happen.

vel0city 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Its not like all the ships hit by attacks in the Straight of Hormuz sank. A ship could potentially become critically damaged and become unable to operate the reactor and still be floating.

Either way, "loss of nuclear material" is the real concern isn't it, instead of just the nature of how that loss happened?

The question still stands. If a country knows they're potentially going to cause a nuclear disaster by hitting one of these ships on their shoreline, are they as likely to shoot at them?

scottLobster 10 hours ago | parent [-]

The hardliners might want to cause a nuclear incident to keep the strait closed longer.

And even among the non-hardliners mistakes are rampant in war. It's not about what they're likely to rationally do, it's about what some local, demoralized missile officer who graduated in the bottom 20% of his class does when he's cut off from command and drinking too much.

raffraffraff 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not every culture encourages the same principles or values as yours. I'd say they possibly would.

vel0city 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Are there cultures out there which wish for important parts of their own country get turned into nuclear wastelands?

If Iran wants to make their country a nuclear wasteland, they don't need to blow up ships to do it. I'd imagine they probably don't want that outcome, but hey I'm not an Iranian so I can't speak for them.

I kind of figured that'd just be a "logical" thing and not necessarily a "cultural" thing, but I agree I don't know all cultures.

pbkompasz 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’d put people who have maliciously and intentionally undermined action on climate change first. Donald Trump comes to mind.

adammarples 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is not an argument for global warming, but do bear in mind that cold kills far more and on balance global warming has saved lives here. The issue is going to cause worse problems than heat deaths though. However, a big wet bulb event could completely reverse that count.

dyauspitr 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or Europe should just get air-conditioning and enjoy the beautiful weather. Can’t make it through the winter without heat. Why would you want to make it through the summer without air-conditioning?

That being said fuck pollution and the ruining of our environment.

sebtron 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Walking outside with 40°C is not "enjoying the beautiful weather", it is miserable. Air conditioning only solves part of the problem.

dyauspitr 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Walking outside in 40° weather is enjoyable

_djo_ 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Air conditioning the indoors doesn’t do anything to prevent the harm and damage to animals, agricultural land, infrastructure, and so many other things. It also, of course, can’t protect those who have to work or commute in the heat.

40°C with high humidity from 5am to 10am every day is not ‘beautiful weather’.

abeppu 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think we should start charging the worst emitters with manslaughter now. We shouldn't wait for the crisis to be halted; the law should be part of how we force firms to recognize part of the harm.

amanaplanacanal 11 hours ago | parent [-]

The largest emitters are electricity generation and personal transport. So... Heads of power companies and everybody that drives a car?

abeppu 2 hours ago | parent [-]

How about large scale fossil fuel emitters (including power production) who have lobbied against their own clean replacements (e.g. solar, wind, weakening net metering)?

I do think that ICE car drivers who have ever, e.g. voted against public transit are guilty of _something_ but I don't think it's manslaughter.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/05/opinion/utility-bills-cle...