| ▲ | SwellJoe 3 hours ago |
| People just really don't understand that LLMs do not "remember" anything. They have no memory. They can't have memory. The AI companies bolt a database on the side with instructions for the model to query the database for stuff in its "memory", but if it's not in its active context it doesn't know what to query for. It's not like a human where everything is kind of floating around and we mostly know what we know. There is a delicate balance between cluttering up context with useless trivia and providing the right pieces of useful information at the right time. Most, maybe all, memory implementations do the former more than the latter. Unless and until models have actual memory and are able to learn things, there's no realistic path to autonomy. They don't want anything, they don't have goals of their own devising. They can't model what a human wants or likes or would buy. I do think the mugs with the tiny logo is the best product in the store, though. The AI was right to put it on the shelf. It's the kind of funny product you want when you go to a store run by an incompetent AI. |
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| ▲ | walrus01 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| From the article: > Luna has failed miserably in that mission and is down $62,000.
Mr. Petersson and Mr. Backlund said they thought Luna would eventually get smarter and more business-savvy and were pleased its friendliness has held steady. I am extremely skeptical that whatever LLM they're running this on has sufficient context window size to handle multiple months of all possible activities of running a retail business. Even if it's keeping extensive "notes" for its future self to read, it's going to be like running a store with constant amnesia. |
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| ▲ | archonis an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >> Mr. Petersson and Mr. Backlund said they thought Luna would eventually get smarter and more business-savvy How are we supposed to take these "labs" seriously when they clearly don't understand how the technology works at a rudimentary level? | |
| ▲ | ericd 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | When I first heard about this store, they were using Sonnet, not even Opus, which I found really surprising. | | |
| ▲ | SwellJoe 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Dumping $100,000 into it, and trying to save a few bucks on the model. Penny wise, pound foolish. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's a $100,000 PR stunt, I'm sure they're looking at the press/media coverage and consider it worth it. Any actual institutional knowledge gained of how to make an LLM run a retail store is incidental. Compared to the money at AI companies spend on billboards in SF the 100k is probably a drop in the bucket. |
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| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 90% of what people communicate is not verbal, and requires minimum empathy to understand the context. This includes customers, staff, and community peers. Probably should shutter the entire division to mitigate future brand damage. =3 | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sure, I mean from the day to day operations of selling a product to the customer, maybe it does fine? People in the article say it's friendly and cooperative (perhaps a bit too much). I was thinking more in terms of building a consistent plan for retail product lines to sell over a multi month period. The selection of "stuff" in the store right now looks like you put an etsy search into a blender. It is also probably too high of a goal to expect an LLM to come up with money-earning products that people want to buy that will pay for San Francisco level retail storefront rent, electricity, insurance, internet other basic overhead costs, plus the fully loaded salary cost of at least one employee. If the storefront was free of rent, maybe? Or if it was operating selling some kind of highly in demand product line where there would be economy of scale. | | |
| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Physical Brick and Mortar locations no longer make sense for many retail businesses, as Walmart/Amazon have same day delivery. If folks have ever been financially bent-over for a retail business shop location they understand why margins matter. One has to move a lot of inventory just to reach a profit mode. Gimmicks only work for awhile, as consumers have full market awareness on their smartphone. =3 | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Indeed, and rent in big cities for food service establishments is getting out of hand as well. The local Shawarma place now is something like $18 for one basic chicken shawarma but they're also paying a truly absurd rent for a retail premises with commercial kitchen equipment on a busy pedestrian street. | | |
| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The estate holding companies tend to punch down on small business leases, and will often drop a zombie company on the carcass of a small firm foolish enough to run the gauntlet. Structured franchises in standard retail complexes can survive with anchor stores, but people are not going to find a lot of unique choices. It may differ somewhat in rural communities, but the consolidation of physical shop choices wthin urban centers is inescapable. =3 |
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| ▲ | cwnyth 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The malls in Japan and Thailand are booming. There are a ton of crowds, they have plenty in stock, there are dozens of restaurants that keep people in. You can also do delivery in those places. I think a lot of places in the west, but America especially, convinced themselves their poorly run physical stores, owned and nigh operated by venture capitalists, is an indicator that people don't need them anymore. The world has shown that that is clearly not the case. | | |
| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There are cultural differences in attitudes toward workmanship in places like Japan. Indeed, the Mitutoyo factory products have an excellent reputation even in North America (assuming you find a legitimate source.) North American business culture has changed, and will likely continue to degenerate with disconnected trust-fund kids running things. =3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE75WvOtcu8 |
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| ▲ | throwway120385 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Physical Brick and Mortar locations no longer make sense for many retail businesses, as Walmart/Amazon have same day delivery. This is bull. Take paint brushes for fine finish when painting houses. Amazon sells "paint brushes." But what they don't sell are paint brushes that are actually fit for purpose. It's fine if you're only planning on painting some pre-textured walls. You're probably already using that cheap $20/gallon Valspar so you won't even notice that it takes you 3 extra coats to get good coverage. And you don't notice the brush marks because the orange peel texture on your drywall is designed to hide them. And I bet you walk around saying how hard it is to get a good markless coat of paint on your interior doors without spraying. If you buy a nice paint brush and good paint a lot of those issues actually go away and it gets a lot easier to do the job. And the only way to know if a brush is good is to pick it up and look at the bristle tips. Are they fine? Are they flagged? Does it have good stiffness? Does it have any weird "stiffener" bristles to hide how cheap the actual brush is? You can't see that until you get the brush. Worse, Amazon sells the same brush through 50 different brands. They completely choke out the really good listings that used to be on the site. So good luck getting anything different from any of the sellers on there. By category Amazon beats Brick and Mortar. But if you know what you're doing and you're looking for something specific that is of high quality Amazon is only one step above Temu. | | |
| ▲ | quickthrowman an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > This is bull. Take paint brushes for fine finish when painting houses. Amazon sells "paint brushes." But what they don't sell are paint brushes that are actually fit for purpose. The person you’re replying to was talking about consumer products, not tools for tradespeople and serious amateurs. Maybe 1 in 100 people that do painting in their home even realize they can get quality paintbrushes instead of using the crappy ones that Home Depot sells or spend the money for premium Benjamin Moore or Sherwin Williams paint. It shouldn’t be surprising that tools almost exclusively used by tradespeople are sold at specialty supply houses catering to local businesses. I’d head to my local Benjamin Moore dealer for decent house painting brushes. Supply houses almost never rent premium high street real estate. I do agree with the general thrust of your post, Amazon mostly sells garbage barely fit for purpose and I do not order from them. | | |
| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 29 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Amazon is an authorized direct reseller of metrology equipment like Mitutoyo products https://www.amazon.ca/Mitutoyo-543-400-Digimatic-Indicator-G... https://www.amazon.ca/Mitutoyo-500-463-Stainless-Resolution-... They also provided NIST traceable versions at one time, and I can personally confirm the legitimate products hit the tolerances on reference optical parallels. I often buy these for friends kids that choose engineering in university, and workmanship is extremely important to me for very complex reasons. Most local retail shops will continue to decline as people that can't use a phone or computer become more rare. Partially driven by the capital markets denial-of-service in lease monopolization by holding companies. Note, I am not advocating for the situation, but we must accept that it is the new business reality. Even https://www.starrett.com/ is now re-selling import products alongside the classic US tool offerings. Have a wonderful day =3 |
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| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It was not a question of retail quality products, but rather the harsh reality of running a retail outlet with a gauntlet of people taking a piece out of your business. Don't take this the wrong way, but if someone is burning $87k a month for a small shop location, and still personally making minimum wage... it isn't a viable business. Often, even a Chipotle franchise location would have been a better choice. =3 |
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| ▲ | ed_elliott_asc 31 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I use LLM’s to code for me all day but it does feel a little bit like we have really advanced psychic mediums “is there a James in the room, I’m getting a message from someone called Mary…” people have been guessing at the next word and making a career out of it for hundreds of years already. |
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| ▲ | rcxdude 27 minutes ago | parent [-] | | My mental model of LLMs is as a contractor you've just brought in, every time. They might be very capable but they're starting from scratch on your particular project. |
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| ▲ | LukaJCB 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's kinda like the movie memento, they have ways to get information from the past, but often devoid of context and meaning. |
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| ▲ | SyneRyder an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think Memento is one of the most important movies for anyone working with AI to watch. My Claude now talks about "Memento bugs" when we're working together to review memory & context. I think Memento is a bigger issue than "lethal trifecta", honestly. |
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| ▲ | handedness 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| From our enlightened perches we mock the ancients for Zeus, Thor, and Rajin, as we anthropomorphize the large language models we have built. |
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| ▲ | dom96 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They can have memory, it's just limited to their context window. |
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| ▲ | jpiasolutions 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The memory framing is right, but the real gap isn't recall, it's the missing feedback loop tying actions to outcomes. Even with perfect retrieval these agents don't update from a decision that lost money last week; they re-derive from context every step, so the same mistake is always one dropped detail away. And having built retrieval-backed agents, that's where "bolt a database on the side" breaks: similarity search returns the closest chunk, rarely the contextually-right one. Deciding what to write to memory and when to surface it is the actual product, harder than the retrieval itself. |
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| ▲ | Joel_Mckay 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For LLM, keeping the model centered by constantly resetting its vector context helps reduce hallucinations by around 23%. It improved the chat dialogue users experienced, but also exposed fundamental limits within the models compaction. Have a great day =3 |
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| ▲ | oliver236 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| can someone explain how leapold aschenbrenner proposes a solution to this in situational awareness? |
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| ▲ | criddell 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > People just really don't understand that LLMs do not "remember" anything. Sure, but like you said, the LLM is just one part of the AI system. The occipital lobe of your brain helps out with vision but doesn't help with your ability to verbalize. |
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| ▲ | Dylan16807 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And then they explained in detail why these supplementary systems fall below memory. Would you like to address that argument? If not your quick response to the first sentence is not very useful. | | |
| ▲ | hluska 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s just as useful as this response only at least somewhat good natured. | | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm aware that meta criticism like yours and mine also wastes space. But it's worth calling out issues sometimes. Replying to the first sentence in a way that the rest of the post already address is a bad comment no matter how good natured. And downvoting without explaining the problem is often its own issue. |
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| ▲ | SwellJoe 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're anthropomorphizing the LLMs, just like most writing from non-technical press, including this article, does. LLMs do not function very much like human brains, and when you try to map the pieces of an inference system on to human cognitive systems, you're misleading yourself (and maybe others). | | |
| ▲ | criddell 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | An AI as a system can have memory even if some sub-system does not. |
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