| ▲ | mocana a day ago |
| Ok. A serious question.
I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity. Then why are they using gas turbines? Is it because they can generate more power with a smaller real estate footprint? |
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| ▲ | lee_ars a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Texas specifically has heavily politicized and demonized wind power, in spite of having massive successes with it prior to 2016 and being a leading producer of it. Solar isn't as bad, but is still seen as "leftist." The political landscape in TX is vastly more friendly to natural gas. In other words, they are using gas turbines because the politicians are stupid. |
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| ▲ | yonaguska a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They are using gas because it's more reliable during peak usage. Wind generation in Texas isn't optimal throughout the entire state and conditions aren't optimal all the time. They still use wind, but from a pure numbers perspective, gas infra already exists, the gas is there, and gas is more reliable, so wind isn't always the cheapest form of energy. There are also diminishing returns on just adding more wind turbines. | |
| ▲ | preg_match 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Gas is also incredibly cheap in Texas. Way, way cheaper than you would think. In some parts, it's negative price - you will be paid to use it. We have entirely too much gas, which is actually a problem because ideally we want to discourage its use. So yes, wind and solar are cheap. Depending on where in Texas you are, gas is cheaper. | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Texas leads the nation in solar installed and solar planned. How do you reconcile that with your theory? | | |
| ▲ | cwal37 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | *utility-scale solar, not solar overall | | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Utility scale, solar installs, and will be total solar by end of year. Texas accounts for 40% of new solar capacity installed per year at this point. It does lag behind an inefficient and expensive rooftop solar, and has no State mandate for homeowners to build it. That said, I think this is enough to show that Texas doesn't hate solar, so there's probably a different reason for selecting gas to support the data center. If I were to Hazard I guess, it would be stability and demand curve |
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| ▲ | xienze a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think you might want to download new anti-Texas talking points. Texas is number two in the nation in solar power: https://seia.org/media/16020/texas.pdf/ Texas is not at all against renewables. Maybe, just maybe, whatever axes the people building data centers are optimizing on rule out solar/wind over factors other than "renewables are for leftists, so fuck that we're gonna burn gas even if it's more expensive." | | |
| ▲ | lee_ars a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > I think you might want to download new anti-Texas talking points. No need—the current ones are uploaded directly into my mailbox regularly by Randy Weber, my district rep. | |
| ▲ | shakna a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | 15th for non-residential? Sounds like people overwhelmingly put it on their roofs, and politicians avoid it. | | |
| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Did you miss the 1st utility part? It can be quite hard for nonresidential users to retrofit for solar. Not impossible but sometimes not an easy solve. | | |
| ▲ | shakna 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, I do have a bias. > 11.40% of TX electricity is from solar This is... Not a huge statement to me. My home state is at 16% solar, and we're calling it inadequate. [0] Its not a 1-to-1, as we have probably 10% of the people, and 1/3 of the landmass. More spread out, different demand, so a completely different landscape. But 11% is not some victory dance. [0] https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/about-energy/news/news-stories... |
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| ▲ | xienze a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Avoid it to the tune of being in the top third (for now, they're projected to keep growing), behind only blue states that are known for aggressive rollout and/or climates that are overall more favorable (i.e., Texas gets its fair share of sun but not quite like CA and NV, for example)? Is that your idea of avoiding it because politicians want to own the libs? |
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| ▲ | andyjohnson0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I often wonder why conservatives have such a problem with renewable energy. I can certainly believe that oil and gas pay better bribes, and that this incentivises a certain kind of politician who seem to be over-represented among conservatives in the US. But that doesn't explain the widespread dislike among the conservative end of the general population. Is it just groupthink or Overton Window -nudging using social media? Or is there something more psychological going on? Some kind of disgust reaction? | | |
| ▲ | andrepd 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | One would think that self-proclaimed "conservatives" would like to conserve the natural world... Long gone are the days of Teddy Roosevelt that's for sure. |
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| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | hahahaa a day ago | parent | next [-] | | What if..... the USA had a national grid and what if.... they connected solar and wind across the country and for kicks, invested in storage. | | |
| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | inigyou a day ago | parent [-] | | > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. | | |
| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent [-] | | Eh you are posting hyperbole that has nothing to do with this thread. I made a single quip while furthering my position. Posting rules like you are doing are even worse. You have a downvote. | | |
| ▲ | defrost a day ago | parent [-] | | The person you are replying to is not the person that made "the Reddit style posts". | | |
| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent [-] | | Replace Reddit with hyperbolic statements that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. There was a wave of high points less than 1 year old accounts posting highly hyperbolic statements that had nothing to do with the topic or were so far off from how physics works that it’s a bit silly. The person I responded to is only posting because I disagreed with them in this thread elsewhere. Going back to the original rule the point is to not have endless meta discussions. I am skirting it imo but I included rationale for my argument. But instead of continuing a meta discussion the better option for someone like you would be to downvote it. |
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| ▲ | inigyou a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Trump paid a wind farm company $1,200,000,000 of taxpayer money to stop building a wind farm | | | |
| ▲ | lee_ars a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | infecto a day ago | parent [-] | | The personal jab was unnecessary. If it’s because I called out your hyperbole it might have been better to try to educate me instead of trying to name call or be rude in every sentence. Hard to even read your response it starts so low. Sorry! You’re also mixing up Texas energy policy with the engineering requirements of an AI data center. Those are different discussions. The claim that Texas wind generation is “back to 2017 levels” isn’t supported by the data. Texas continues to add large amounts of wind and especially solar. Solar has been dominating though as a percentage of generation and wind has fallen behind. Wind input costs are up quite a bit since 2017-2021 era. I am sure some of this might have political motivations but if the economics are in solar companies are going to build solar farms. The original point still stands: if you need guaranteed 24/7 on site power for a massive data center, gas turbines are a much more practical solution than trying to achieve the same reliability with wind, solar, and batteries. Your post is just a political derailment that does not hit why Amazon did what they did. |
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| ▲ | swiftcoder a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Under current administration, I'm not even sure its possible to build out green energy for this sort of thing at scale - this article[1] was on the front page just yesterday [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49208314 |
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| ▲ | Schiendelman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's because the permits are easier to get. It's very hard to get people to organize to make renewable energy permitting easier. |
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| ▲ | jillesvangurp 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because the US has some policies that make those currently more expensive than they should be while. A combination of tariffs, removal of incentives for local producers, etc. has caused prices to be higher than they could be. All of this is because of fossil fuel lobby funded campaigns for exactly this to happen. The flip side of course is that gas turbines are in short supply and manufacturers are in no hurry to build out production capacity for what is effectively obsolete technology with a very uncertain future. A lot of the projects being announced may never get delivered for the simple reason that there are long waiting lists for these things. And there is the notion that related investments might end up under water when the few plants that do get built start struggling economically in ten years or so. These are not very attractive long term investments. The short term interest in securing any capacity at all is overriding this. Of the well over a hundred GW of data centers planned until 2035, probably only less than a 30-40% will actually get built; if not less. Michael Liebreich is predicting only about 35GW will be realized. His estimate is that there simply is no more production capacity that can be committed than that. It will be interesting to see if this Amazon plant actually gets built. For now Amazon can afford to gamble on this and just write it off if it doesn't work out. If policy changes in a few years, I expect a lot of these projects to get unceremoniously cancelled when it turns out that they are a combination of under water financially and behind on schedule because of component shortages anyway. Also, it only takes a few failed projects for everyone to get cold feet. Premature closures of new gas plants could happen if renewables get cheap enough. Those are already happening in some places. |
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| ▲ | inigyou a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| For a DC it's probably reliability. You need wind to be spread over a large area to even out random changes in power availability. And, obviously, solar power works during the day. |
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| ▲ | atonse 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | But this is essentially a solved problem even at utility scale, with renewables + battery banks, right? This isn't cutting edge stuff. |
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| ▲ | DGAP a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Renewables require storage because they are bursty - sun goes down, wind stops blowing. This is more expensive than just burning as much nat gas as you need. |
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| ▲ | fallingbananna a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Presumably, the data center usage could also be bursty, right? More people will be using AI during the (work)day, than at midnight. Then they could do half solar, half gas. Also "more expensive" when it comes to solar isn't meaningful until you also consider timeframe. Solar panels pay themselves off in a few years, and after that they basically generate "free" electricity. Gas never becomes cheaper or free, every year it will cost money. | | |
| ▲ | hahahaa 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I doubt it will be bursty. First: global usage. Next: I even wonder why frontiers labs don't sell batch processing and spot prices to keep 100% utilisation. If they do that and I suspect they will it will be 24/7 maxxed. Imagine this: Fable at 98% discount because but you need to wait. Then imagine: bots that scan your tickets for easy low priority tasks to do when those cheap tokens come. Let alone research batch compute needs. Training and so on. One concept will drive this shift: GAAP profitability. | |
| ▲ | DennisP 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | AWS is heavily used worldwide, not just in the US. The same goes for the big AI companies. Timeframe is accounted for if you look at levelized cost per kWh. The levelized cost of natural gas is 5 to 11 cents/kWh. In the sunniest spots, the levelized cost of solar with enough battery storage to provide 24/7 power is about the same, if you want >90% reliability. The usual four hours of storage is only enough to account for the "duck curve" during the day. https://www.pv-tech.org/solar-pv-and-storage-cost-declines-d... https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/solar-electricity-e... Solar and batteries keep getting cheaper so hopefully they will be clear winners soon, at least in sunny areas. |
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| ▲ | hahahaa a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | How is it more expensive? Any links? Once built out yeah there is maintainance but no need to drill baby drill anymore. | | |
| ▲ | therealdrag0 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | The cost of energy varies widely based on regional factors, geography, existing energy portfolio makeup, etc. Additionally cost is not just the unit price but the price overtime to support a specific SLA. Texas has very cheap gas; it’s also good for solar. They are very competitive price wise, so it’s kinda depressing they are using gas. But it’s probably a slight price edge plus better reliability. |
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| ▲ | 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
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| ▲ | matkoniecz a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| gas turbines are not intermittent > I frequently hear that wind and solar are the cheapest forms of electricity presumably they put zero value on stable production or count subsidies as income |
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| ▲ | unnamed76ri a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| You need a ton of land for solar and no renewable is as reliable as fossil fuels. |
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