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| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > naively and gratefully trust in the armies of volunteer maintainers is over I'm almost scared to ask, did you not even review the PKGBUILD or anything else before installing stuff from the AUR? Nixpkgs has a completed different model compared to AUR, the changes that end up in nixpkgs are all reviewed by maintainers, while AUR is literally free-for-all "anyone can push anything at any time", I don't think you ever could "naively and gratefully trust" AUR in the way you might have been. | | |
| ▲ | dijit 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > did you not even review the PKGBUILD or anything else before installing stuff from the AUR? I'd venture most people actually don't review pkgbuild; especially on upgrades. The other issue of course is that, the devils in the details. Fetch a binary as part of the installation (or, just fetch a binary itself, no compilation) then you're boned. You can even hide nefarious code in the compilation/build steps, Jia Tan style. | | |
| ▲ | nvme0n1p1 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Why especially upgrades? Upgrades are way easier to review than new installs. Most diffs I see are just these two lines: -pkgver=1.7.2
+pkgver=1.7.3
-sha256sums=('aaaaaaaaaa')
+sha256sums=('bbbbbbbbbb')
It takes like 5 seconds to read and press Y. | | |
| ▲ | dijit an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Cool theory, but the same reason I pull my shoes off by standing on my heel and pulling, despite it saving me no time (I will have to untie them anyway when I put them on again). Humans are short sighted, want to solve the situation immediately and will do the laziest thing possible to accomplish a given task. | | |
| ▲ | 0gs an hour ago | parent [-] | | pop each lace down one eyelet and you'll never have to untie them again if the heel is both sturdy and forgiving enough |
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| ▲ | dwedge an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Call me naive (I don't use arch) but if that's the only change then what's the point releasing the change? Unless pkgver refers to an external dependency or a binary, in which case you might as well say reading the changelog counts as reading the code | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 30 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Usually you concat them to form the GitHub tarball URL or similar, so on updates you only review the version/hash bumps, as on install you've validated the right GitHub organization/domain already. Babashka has this for example (https://aur.archlinux.org/cgit/aur.git/tree/PKGBUILD?h=babas...): pkgname=babashka-bin
pkgver=1.13.219
url='https://github.com/borkdude/babashka'
source_x86_64=("${pkgname}-${pkgver}-linux-amd64-static.tar.gz::${url}/releases/download/v${pkgver}/${pkgname%-bin}-${pkgver}-linux-amd64-static.tar.gz")
So on install, you review ideally everything, but at least the URL/organization/domain. Then on updates, you've already validated them, so the pkgver bump is the only thing of interest. | |
| ▲ | OJFord 28 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | AUR packages consist of packaging a third-party software (whether binary or source built as part of the package) for use on Arch. Most updates are just bumping the upstream software version and its checksum, as GP describes, and yes arguably you should be reviewing the change to that software too, but that's a separate threat. And it may be a proprietary binary, in which case on update you've already decided to trust the third-party, so the diff shows you that nothing has changed in that regard, the trusted party simply released a new opaque version. |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I'd venture most people actually don't review pkgbuild; especially on upgrades. No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers, without a single step of validating before giving it access to (presumably) the same computer you do banking on? > The other issue of course is that, the devils in the details. Fetch a binary as part of the installation (or, just fetch a binary itself, no compilation) then you're boned. Sure, that's why when you review the PKGBUILD, and instead of it using the official GitHub organization / domain (which you of course validate) for downloading the binary/source, you don't install it. I agree it's still vulnerable to Jia Tan style attacks, but installing from AUR is essentially "curl http://random-website.com/script.sh | bash", and reviewing a PKGBUILD takes a few seconds, and stop/cancel if something is sus, it's really that easy. | | |
| ▲ | cyberclimb 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers, without a single step of validating before giving it access... Realistically most users? It's already quite a technical barrier to run Arch Linux, and the knowledge to further know about/understand PKGBUILD can only comes with time and is yet another layer filtering people's ability to know how to even try to catch something malicious. Now consider the layer of even experienced user that's in a bit of rush and doesn't have time to review the full diffs they're upgrading to. Ralistically it's nearly statistically impossible that 100% of users would be able to all catch and block a given exploit themselves. A shared responsibility model of security [1] comes to mind, and while it's great for users to be active participants in their security, their action/awareness should be a last resort. I wouldn't blame the user. [1] https://docs.cloud.google.com/architecture/framework/securit... | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 35 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > doesn't have time to review the full diffs they're upgrading to. Again, why are people expecting that you need to review the entire thing? You don't have to, you have to look at the download source (a github organization or a domain name or a cdn bucket) and look at what dependencies/other junk it pulls in. Usually this is 3-5 lines at max, and usually only the binary/source is taken from github/server, the rest is from official Arch repositories. Of course it's unrealistic to expect users to review 100% of the code they run on their machine, that's why no one is expecting this, nor claiming that users should do this. But reviewing 3-5 lines when installing software from literal strangers on the internet, isn't so much to ask. | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 33 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's already quite a technical barrier to run Arch Linux People are supposed to clear that barrier by studying the Arch Wiki and other technical materials so that they understand what they are doing, why they are doing it, and the risks involved. When they install random software pushed by random people they know nothing about much less trust without even so much as a glance at the PKGBUILD, they're not overcoming any barriers, they're YOLOing their personal computers and hoping it turns out fine. > I wouldn't blame the user. I would. They were warned. |
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| ▲ | fantyoon 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers, without a single step of validating before giving it access to (presumably) the same computer you do banking on? I would assume essentially everyone? `curl https://random-website.com/script.sh | sh` is one of the most common way of installing software outside of perhaps Flatpak. AppImage is essentially the same as piping a script from the internet into bash. > reviewing a PKGBUILD takes a few seconds This assumes a naive attack that is easily visible from the PKGBUILD. Unless the attacker makes no effort to hide their activity, the PKGBUILD will look perfectly ordinary while still installing malware. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > `curl https://random-website.com/script.sh | sh` is one of the most common way of installing software Sure wish GitHub READMEs hadn't normalized this. | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | What PKGBUILD referencing official sources that been attacked would not be easily visible? The second the source changes away from official sources, you stop installing from it. It's one line you have to review, usually pointing to either a Github release or a CDN/download host under the official domain. | | |
| ▲ | fantyoon an hour ago | parent [-] | | PKGBUILDs are more powerful than that. They might download dependencies for the build from a package registry like npm, pypi, or crates, they might download and apply patches, and run arbitrary build scripts. Changes to some of that might be easy to catch, but if the PKGBUILD depends on external resources, it can be quite hard to audit. I am not saying this is good practice, but you can see these sort of things happen all the time on the AUR. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, indeed they might, but if you start seeing sketchy stuff like that, then don't continue, I'm not sure I understand what's hard here. Or do continue, but then if those are AUR packages themselves, review them as such. Personally I just ignore anything not built from official binaries/sources. If the PKGBUILD depends on more stuff then just officially available things, don't blindly install it and wish for the best. Just like if you "curl | bash" install something, you do at least look at the URL right? It takes a couple of seconds, maybe tens of seconds if you don't recognize the domain/github organization since before. | | |
| ▲ | bondarchuk an hour ago | parent [-] | | Ah but you switched now from "I don't think people do this" to "people shouldn't do this". You're right about the latter but wrong about the former. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, contrary to popular belief, even I am affected by context and change what I converse about as the discussions topic and context drift, this is called having a conversation. I'll stand by that I think most Arch Linux users, extrapolated from the people I know also run it, review at least the domain/GitHub organization for random AUR packages, and all of them are aware of what the AUR actually is, and is for. I don't think most people here on HN who are clearly misunderstanding what the AUR is, are actually Arch users, or if they are, they haven't read the header that been visible since forever on the AUR. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > dependencies for the build from a package registry like npm, pypi, or crates, it might download and apply patches, and run arbitrary build scripts You're supposed to review every single one of those too. |
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| ▲ | dwedge an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers Everyone. People who don't tend to build from source and the convenience of package managers has outweighed this for most people for years now. Even if you review the code do you review every library it pulls in? Because I have to tell you I don't believe you, and if most people did do that then these supply chain attacks would be minor news. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent [-] | | I can tell you misunderstand what the AUR actually is. It's not a package registry maintained by anyone, and it's also not limited to "build from source" or whatever. It's more like npm if anything, if you're familiar with that distribution mechanism. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > It's more like npm if anything, if you're familiar with that distribution mechanism. True, but I'd reverse the order. It's npm, pip, cargo, gem and all the others that are like the AUR. They're every bit as dangerous as the AUR, yet the AUR is the only one that singles itself out by warning people of the danger. Anyone can sign up and push packages. I've literally done that myself, even though nobody in the Arch Linux community knows or trusts me. AUR is the only one where users are repeatedly made aware of this danger. All the others normalize and encourage importing random unvetted dependencies for the sake of developer convenience. | | |
| ▲ | preg_match 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes, and this is why npm is never installed on my hosts. Folks podman is good. Very, very good. You want good developer ergonomics? Use dev containers. The cost of pulling npm packages Willy nilly on the host is not worth it! |
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| ▲ | dwedge an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I misunderstood your comment more and in that case I apologise. I thought you meant you review all packages you install or upgrade from any source. In my case I'm guilty of not checking brew updates (even from casks) on Mac, but I'm also guilty of only updating them every couple of months so it probably balances out. |
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| ▲ | preg_match 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers, without a single step of validating before giving it access to (presumably) the same computer you do banking on? Well, for one almost everyone on Windows. That’s changing with winget and such but the standard Linux method is still an anomaly in desktop computing as a whole. | |
| ▲ | dijit 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > No, I'm sorry but who on earth installs random software from random strangers, without a single step of validating before giving it access to (presumably) the same computer you do banking on? That would be every day that I run apt-get, pkg add, brew install, or download a random .exe/.dmg to update my machine. A decade of telling people that if they don't update constantly they're at risk, also affects us computer people. Being able (and willing) to inspect source tree is the exception here, not the standard. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent [-] | | > That would be every day that I run apt-get, pkg add, brew install, or download a random .exe/.dmg to update my machine. Everything except that last part, are not "random strangers on the internet", those are maintainers who maintain the registry/repository you've chosen to use. And when you use those, they use "mirrors" hosted on their own infrastructure. AUR is a very different thing from this, where essentially anyone, at any time, can become a "mirror" and host whatever code they want, with zero review. I obviously don't review stuff when I use pacman and official Arch package repositories, because again, those aren't "Wild west of random binaries", like the AUR. | | |
| ▲ | dijit 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Realistically, maintainers are strangers on the internet to me, and crucially, it is common to add unofficial repos, as well as use non-platform package managers like npm, cargo and pip. It’s all strangers stuff | |
| ▲ | DavideNL an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I get the impression many of the commenters either don’t know what the AUR is, or have no idea how it works (the AUR guidelines are on top of the front page…) The latter might be a problem caused by hosting it on the archlinux.org domain: it creates a *feeling* of trust, for the uninitiated. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 33 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | > I get the impression many of the commenters either don’t know what the AUR is, or have no idea how it works (the AUR guidelines are on top of the front page…) Yup, 100%. Probably I've spent way too long time trying to make people (in the various AUR submissions here on HN) realize that the AUR probably isn't what they think it is, as most replies/comments about the AUR seems misinformed about what it is for and how it works. | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > for the uninitiated Arch Linux is not for the uninitiated. |
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| ▲ | unethical_ban 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Me. Who reads the source code of every program they run? I've learned not to trust the AUR because the barrier to malice is lower, but I run system updates every other day. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Me. Who reads the source code of every program they run? No one. Who codes their own operating systems before they launch a calculator on their own computer? No one as well. Why the irrelevant questions? They're all very different things. You literally have to review one line, that points to a remote URL somewhere, that's it. If it's wrong/sus, don't install it, you don't even have to review more than that. | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Who reads the source code of every program they run? Me. It's even easier now with AI. | | |
| ▲ | dwedge an hour ago | parent [-] | | So, you don't. | | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Have been reading source code for over 15 years now. I read the source code of a lot of software, just for curiosity's sake. I go out of my way to read the source code of random scripts I find laying about and that I want to run before running them. PKGBUILDs are in that category, as are random scripts people throw on GitHub. Only difference is now I ask AI models to read it too. Chances of malware slipping by both myself and AI is lower than it slipping by either in isolation. |
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| ▲ | estimator7292 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | ireadmevs an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > the changes that end up in nixpkgs are all reviewed by maintainers They review the “recipes”, sure. But I don’t know if I’d trust that every diff of the source of every package update is reviewed by them. |
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| ▲ | matheusmoreira 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I wish I had a clear operating system to switch to for safety and the benefits that come with the AUR or the Nix ecosystem. Can't have it both ways. Your packages can come from a small number of trusted individuals who maintain the software distribution. Naturally, this limits your choices to the packages they personally maintain. If you need something outside of that set, you need to ask them to include it or source it yourself. Alternatively, your packages can come from a software repository that allows internet randoms to push literally anything. That expands your selection to all software ever created, which includes malware since nobody's doing the work to filter that stuff out. Arch Linux offers both paradigms. Make an informed decision. | |
| ▲ | matheusmoreira an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > the era of being able to naively and gratefully trust in the armies of volunteer maintainers is over The maintainers you're supposed to trust are Arch Linux's actual staff made up of package maintainers, formerly known as trusted users. AUR packages are maintained by randoms on the internet. Anyone can sign up and push a package. | |
| ▲ | skydhash 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I used alpine linux and it looks pretty easy to setup your own repository, including build scripts for packages. I now use OpenBSD and the port systems of the BSD (each are different BTW) make it also easy to add extra software. |
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