Are there any real options in this space for something that is

- E2EE

- Large group capable (100+ users)

- FOSS + self hostable

- Not riddled with security issues

- Relatively easy to use for iOS and Android users (safe for normies)

I help run a Matrix server for people who are at risk from the current administration and I can attest to all of the issues mentioned plus a few more.

I'd rather not move to something as hostile as Discord and while we've tried Stoat it's infinitely more buggy and the lack of iOS apps is causing problems.

Rocket chat is interesting but E2EE is early in development, lots of security issues at last check.

Simplex isn't going to be better for large group stuff, it has the same fundamental sync issues Matrix does and the devs are more interested in crypto than fixing that.

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stryan an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Nope, just Matrix. Second best option is XMPP with various cobbled together XEPs but that has its own set of problems.

For all the (sometimes rightful) grief Matrix gets, it's essentially the only solution targeting hard problems like multi-device encrypted group chats[0] or truly federated multi-user chats. It can also be a very quickly moving ecosystem, which is difficult to handle when you're an open federated spec. Hence why several of the complaints in this post are caused by old and no longer supported clients and servers.

[0] Infamously, WhatsApp and LINE both support encrypted chats but all the encryption keys are stored on your phone, so you can only have one phone working at a time and desktop access is actually routed through it.

	▲	solarkraft an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> and desktop access is actually routed through it I think this is not true anymore. I’ve had it working with while my phone was off.

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joker99 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You‘re describing Wire. One could quibble about the FOSS part but it is open source (gplv3 or agpl). It’s used by a bunch of European governments and agencies, as well as American agencies, has regular security reviews and thanks to MLS, supports groups with more than 2k clients. Self hosting is a bit of a pain, but people are doing it.

Give it a try

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pkulak 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s Matrix. Matrix has spent too much time chasing Discord, with spaces, and group video chat, and email with federation. And too much time chasing Slack with threads. But everything you mentioned is core Matrix chat and works great on every client.

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fedpost 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, it's a frustrating situation because we have hundreds of people and the constant state-sync issues and assorted account problems are making it hard for non-technical people to participate.

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20k 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Matrix still doesn't have a client with built in push to talk as far as I'm aware. The relevant issue on the Element github has been sat there for 8 years now

It does not seem like a serious project, at least not one being developed by folks who have user experience in mind

	▲	solarkraft an hour ago \| parent [-]
		Same for multi-account support in Element Desktop. However: The new breed of clients (Element X) has this, along with many other improvements. This is probably what the happy user featured in the article was using. They recently (in the last few years) started to focus on UX, with what I would call some success.

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opan 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have you tried XMPP (with OMEMO)?

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gertop 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm sure you've tried or at least considered it, but you didn't explicitly mention it so: XMPP? The MUC extension has no problem with large groups (after a certain point you have to disable presence advertisement and reflections and whatnot, but that's way north of 100)

XMPP has several ways of doing e2ee, the most popular being OMEMO.

The challenge will be finding clients that supports OMEMO for MUCs (multi user chats) on each platform. They exist on desktop, at the very least.

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fedpost 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is a non-technical group so the main concern I have is the same with Element vs Element X vs Fluffy vs ......

It's definitely tempting though, it seems to be by far the most flexible solution.

	▲	zaik 2 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It's an effect of walled gardens that the communication method is conflated with the app. But people understand well that Outlook and Thunderbird is both just email. I think this analogy helps when explaining XMPP.