| ▲ | rayiner 3 hours ago |
| Why can't we work up the political outrage over water-wasting agriculture in California that we managed to gin up over data centers: https://finance.biggo.com/news/202508220112_Data_Centers_vs_... > Alfalfa irrigation (Colorado River): 1.6 trillion gallons annually > Google data centers (global): 6.4 billion gallons in 2023 > Thermoelectric power plants: 41% of total US water use EDIT: that page has a correction to some of the other numbers on the page, but the 6.4 billion gallons number quoted above for Google's data centers is in line with other sources: https://mostpolicyinitiative.org/science-note/data-center-wa... ("Google reported their data center water consumption increased from 4.3 billion gallons in 2021 to 6.1 billion gallons in 2024."). |
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| ▲ | ChuckMcM 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Its a fair question, California agriculture tends to use 11 trillion gallons (34e6 acre feet[1][2]) of water annually. (about 1,700 Googles worth). Generally from a market driven standpoint agricultural users are trying to get maximum $/acre out of their land. I'm trying to convince the state legislature to reclassify "solar farms"[3] as agriculture (as opposed to 'industrial' that they are today) which would allow a farm to decide on an acre by acre basis how much to plant and how much to put into solar farming. Presuming batteries were included in that allowance, 350,000 acres of California farmland as solar farms (panels + batteries for 24/7 power) would power the entire state 24/7 with no need for coal, gas, or nuclear power plants. 100% green energy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_in_California [2] https://www.convertunits.com/from/billion+gallons/to/acre+fo... [3] "Agrivoltaics as a climate-smart and resilient solution for midday depression in photosynthesis in dryland regions" -- https://www.nature.com/articles/s44264-025-00073-1 |
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| ▲ | throwaway2037 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Thermoelectric power plants: 41% of total US water use
I did some research on this statistic. More than 90% of this is returned to source. So if the power plant is drawing water from a river (or aquifer), it is returned after being used to generate electricity (create steam, turn turbines).For example, if you have a 1GW coal powerplant on a river, it might draw 4 billion liters of water per day, but will only evaporate about 5-10% of that amount. The rest is returned to the river. Of course, this is much less exciting (click-baity) than writing "41% of US water use is for thermoelectric power plants". |
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| ▲ | sylos 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I know plenty of folks who got worked up over the wasteful farming that drains and damages aquifers. much like the penalties that kardashians received when they broke the water usage laws, it amounted to nada. |
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| ▲ | voakbasda 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even worse, my understanding is that much of that alfalfa gets put into shipping containers and sold overseas. The agricultural drain on the aquifers does not even benefit US ranchers. |
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| ▲ | hnav 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It benefits whoever has the water rights since they're effectively able to export something that they're not paying the externalities on. | | |
| ▲ | voakbasda an hour ago | parent [-] | | That’s the joke. We are literally letting those growers export our water and put the profit in their own pockets and at the public’s expense. |
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| ▲ | xahrepap an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Shipped to countries that have banned the growing of the crop because of water concerns |
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| ▲ | fastball 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The thing about data centers and thermoelectric power plants is that you can make them effectively closed cycle, vs agriculture where that is somewhat intractable. Not saying that is true today though. |
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| ▲ | supriyo-biswas 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Farming is a necessary activity and in most countries, they are also a politically influential group. The case for data centers in the age of AI is weaker, and the only effects for the average person are noise, pollution, higher electricity costs, higher water costs, for the ultimate "benefit" of losing your job. |
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| ▲ | arjie 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The necessity of alfalfa exports from water-scarce US states is certainly not obvious. Why do you believe this is essential? | | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | bsder 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm all about stomping on the agribusiness water usage and think that whole swathes of agribusiness in CA should get shut down. However, as I understand it, the alfalfa is a soil restorer that the agribusinesses are going to grow anyway. The question is whether there is any benefit to forcing the agribusinesses plow it under vs exporting it. | |
| ▲ | throwaway2037 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > alfalfa exports from water-scarce US states
Which states are those? | | |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nobody actually cares about water use. It's a totem for other activism efforts. Data-centre protests aren't about water, they're about wealth inequality and Altman, Musk and Zuckerberg being hated men. |
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| ▲ | Rzor 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >Data-centre protests aren't about water I suspect the people facing rising electricity cost and air-noise pollution beg to differ. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > suspect the people facing rising electricity cost and air-noise pollution beg to differ I suspect they’re more concerned about “rising electricity cost[s] and air-noise pollution.” | |
| ▲ | protocolture 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | >>Data-centre protests aren't about water >I suspect the people facing rising electricity cost and air-noise pollution beg to differ. Pulling myself together here to be as polite as possible but could you perhaps read the quoted text and your own post again and try and square that circle? Otherwise, are you perhaps in the running for some kind of internet non sequitur award I am unaware of? I would vote for your comment if you simply make me aware of how to do so. |
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| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They're about the environment. They're about corruption and local city councils being bought out. They're about white collar crime and all the skirting of regulation these developers are getting away with. They're about the affordability crisis. They're about one more tool that promises a massive concentration of wealth. They're about tools of war that have already resulted in the bombing of an elementary school. They're a backlash to silicon valley ideology. And imo, most of all, they're about class. I can't remember the last time the poor of all the political spectrum have been so united against something and the rich on both sides have been this apathetic to supportive. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Right. Big umbrellas seldom achieve policy goals. They’re about mobilising folks for something else. People don’t actually turn out over water. That’s the root of the problem and answer to rayiner’s conundrum. Farms could double their water usage while datacenters halve theirs; the contours of protest wouldn’t materially change. If you want to create a political coalition today, and have an AI datacenter being debated near you, rally against it. Like, try to stop it. But if you do doesn’t matter. The coalition is what matters. The datacenter—like the water—isn’t actually what anyone is angry about. | |
| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And imo, most of all, they're about class. I can't remember the last time the poor of all the political spectrum have been so united against something and the rich on both sides have been this apathetic to supportive. Being more worried about data centers than agricultural aquifer use is a damning indictment of the poor in this country, right up with the surprisingly bi-partisan nature of anti-vaxx thinking (https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/14/poll-rfk-maha-vacci...) | | |
| ▲ | culi an hour ago | parent [-] | | I didn't even mention water waste in my comment yet you out of touch techies managed to return to your industry talking point AND hate on poor people in one go of it. And yes, despite your industry talking points, water waste is absolutely a major concern. Unlike residential use, where 80% of the water is reclaimed, open loop data centers (which are over 90% of data centers) allow almost all the water to evaporate. Similarly, about 30-40% of water used in agriculture filter back down to the water table. Agriculture use is also dispersed over large areas whereas data centers draw from a single pipe. Closed loop systems also have their own environmental concerns and need to "bleed the lines" every month or so to get rid of the toxic sludge that builds up. They also use dramatically more electricity which requires a lot of water to generate. The point being, if you live somewhere where a new data center is getting built, you WILL see a massive spike in your electricity bill. What do you get in return? Sam Altman buying another politician? Another elementary school bombed? I agree that agricultural waste is out of hand but at least people get a tangible benefit out of it. You keep trying to ignore all the points and change it to a topic you think you can win but you're still misinformed on that issue. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2025-ai-impacts-data-cent... |
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| ▲ | tzs 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because a lot more consumers care about the milk that comes from the dairy cows in California that consume something like 75% of that alfalfa and the meat that comes from the animals that consume the rest than care about data centers? |
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| ▲ | MengerSponge 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Million, billion, and trillion sadly sound kind of the same when you talk about it. |
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| ▲ | b3lvedere an hour ago | parent [-] | | I agree that is a big part of the problems we have today. But my best guess is also that the systems/people/companies that tend to abuse their power do know extremely well that the layman cannot fathom the difference between the three. Unfortunately most people also don't really care until the problems come hitting them so extremely close you have absolutely no coiche to act upon it. Then the massive outrages start. It's a very predictable cycle. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | pstuart 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There has been outrage. It's yet another tragedy of the commons. Water pricing should be revisited to be closer to its true value -- and while food production should be recognized as essential, even that has to be rethought: is growing alfalfa for dairy less vital than growing vegetables? Especially if that dairy is produced and consumed in Saudi Arabia? The other thing that we should be doing all over is better management of our watersheds so we can try to replenish those aquifers. |
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| ▲ | brador an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| 84.1% of people have <115 IQ. The minimum required to critically think about the modern world and affect its function. With AI that minimum is expected to increase. |
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| ▲ | b3lvedere an hour ago | parent [-] | | The immense amount of CO2 isn't also doing wonders on our brains. | | |
| ▲ | brador 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Lead and cadmium in food caused by cheap fuel and roads closer to farms is also negatively affecting population IQ. Then there’s the internet. |
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| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | topato 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| lol, if you bothered to check the reference your “article” stole from, you’d find a medium post that includes ANOTHER link to a follow up medium post entitled, “I was wrong about data center water consumption” It’s not 6 billion per day. It’s 650 billion per day. In the United States alone. https://www.construction-physics.com/p/i-was-wrong-about-dat... lol |
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| ▲ | rayiner 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank you for the note. But the article I linked to above relies on the page you linked for the Alfalfa number, not the data center number. The data center number in my article, 6.2 billion gallons annually for Google's data centers, is consistent with Google's numbers elsewhere: https://www.latitudemedia.com/news/data-center-water-use-bla... Also, your correction needs as correction: > If you simply take the Berkeley estimates directly, you get around 628 million gallons of water consumption per day for data centers, much higher than the 66-67 million gallons per day I originally stated. However, the methods used to produce these estimates are debatable, and seem to have been chosen to give the maximum possible value for data center water consumption. If you exclude the water “consumed” by hydroelectric plants via reservoir evaporation, you get something closer to perhaps 275 million gallons per day.1 And if you take into account the fact that lots of data center operators use renewable energy PPAs (mostly from wind and solar sources), my guess is that you get something closer to 200-250 million gallons per day (though I haven’t run a detailed calculation here). It's not 675 billion gallons a day, it's 675 million, which is about 246 billion gallons a year. |
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| ▲ | avazhi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Probably because food and agriculture (in the region that produces a quarter of America’s domestic food supply) are required for life, while data centers aren’t? |
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| ▲ | scarmig 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Although delicious, alfalfa is not required for life. A lot of it goes to Saudi Arabia, who use it for horses and cattle, as the Saudis banned it domestically for being wasteful for water usage. | | |
| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's also grown for the same reason soy is grown. It's a highly effective nitrogen fertilizer for the soil. It's also one of the most digestible and high-protein forages | |
| ▲ | throwaway2037 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > alfalfa is not required for life
This quote doesn't do much for me. It is like saying that the insane amounts of corn and soy that US (and Brazil and Canada) farmers produce "is not required for life". If you think a little deeper, it is used to feed livestock, that are used for meat, that are "required for life". (Please don't respond with something dumb like "you can stay alive without meat". Yes, we know that.) For the record, Japan also imports lots of alfalfa from the US. Japan has far more fresh water than it can use, but it doesn't have enough arable land to grow the alfalfa that it needs to feed its livestock. | | |
| ▲ | kuerbel an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >Please don't respond with something dumb like "you can stay alive without meat". Yes, we know that. That part is actually the weakest part of your argument. You are dismissing a valid counterargument before addressing it. Something being part of a current food production system does not make it a biological necessity. People can live without meat, therefore alfalfa is not "required for life" in the literal sense. You are also shifting the meaning of "required": from "necessary for humans to survive" to "necessary for maintaining our current livestock industry." Those are very different claims. Preemptively calling an obvious counterargument "dumb" is not a way to win the argument; it is a way to avoid having it. Is it rational to dedicate enormous amounts of land, water, and energy to producing animal feed when those same resources could feed more people directly? Using crops as feed and then eating the animals is an inherently inefficient way of converting resources into food. That may be acceptable when resources are abundant, but it becomes increasingly difficult to justify as we face limits in freshwater, arable land, and ecological capacity. That is the true argument, and what the discussion should be about, not if we can (very obviously) survive without meat. | |
| ▲ | culi 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Japan imports alfalfa because of an expansion of the USJTA in where Japan committed to purchasing $8 billion in US agricultural goods. South Korea imports alfalfa because of the KORUS FTA removes all duties on forage goods. China buys alfalfa because of yet another trade deal that was brokered to prevent a trade war from spiraling. Alfalfa hay was explicitly highlighted in the Phase One agreement. |
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| ▲ | darig 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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