| ▲ | toasty228 3 days ago |
| As Macron said in 2023: "Who could have predicted the climate crisis?" The people in charge a either clinically retarded or willingly ignoring the problem, either way we're fucked, the point of no return is behind us now, this is the new normal, and it'll only get worse |
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| ▲ | nancyminusone 3 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| In some ways I wonder if these timescales are "beyond comprehension" for most people. You can tell people the temperature will go up in 20 years, but you can't make them feel what it will be like. In the same way you can tell a 10 year old what it's like to be age 35 but they don't get it, and I've heard what it's like to be age 80 but I don't really know and won't for some time. |
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| ▲ | magicalhippo 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > You can tell people the temperature will go up in 20 years I think the biggest issue with the climate change communication is that the scientists decided to focus on a temperature delta. There is no meaningful temperature delta, it's just something that you get after a lot of aggregation and averaging. Sure it makes sense for scientists running their models and such, but it should never have been the primary communication tool to politicians and laymen. I think it would have been significantly better if they invented some new scale, like the Richter scale or the hurricane severity scale, which instead incorporates the effects of the average temperature rising. A scale which directly communicates a sense of how many more fires will we see per year, how many more severe storms, flash floods etc. | |
| ▲ | cbg0 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think we've gotten to the point where the question can be asked looking back, not forward: think back to your childhood and how much things have changed since then? If you've lived long enough you can notice these things. I used to have snow for weeks each winter in my city and now if I get 2-3 days of snow a year it's unusual. Extreme weather events where it rains in one day as much as in one month have become a recurring event to the point we're re-planning sewage systems around these things. | |
| ▲ | ifwinterco 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Arguably it's rational (though selfish) to think like this. Life is short, there's no point freezing and living off leaves for the next few decades when you'll be old in the blink of an eye anyway | | |
| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Arguably it's rational (though selfish) to think like this. Is it? We are not talking about screwing the climate for the people who will come in 200 years, right? In the last decades we have been saying "if we don't change the trend, your children will most likely die because of the climate change". Is it rational to be 30 and not care about the fact that we will be screwed long before we reach the age of retirement? | |
| ▲ | dfxm12 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Setting aside the fact that I want to leave things in a good place for my kids, neighbors' kids, nieces, nephews and all their friends... Setting aside the fact that even if I was so selfish to care about my personal legacy, I'd want the world around long enough to learn about it... there's no point freezing and living off leaves for the next few decades I don't think the ask here is so unreasonable. It's disingenuous to frame it this way. |
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| ▲ | csto12 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > “the people in charge” The everyday person votes for those in charge, and the everyday person couldn’t care less. |
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| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Everyday people are generally more pro-renewables and climate action. The politicians can be targeted with bribes by anyone affected by the transition. A classic collective action problem as described by Mancur Olson. |
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| ▲ | throw0101d 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > As Macron said in 2023: "Who could have predicted the climate crisis?" The oil companies in the 1970s for one: * https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0063 |
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| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Agreed that the people in charge do nothing and don't understand the problem. However, the people in charge (e.g. in France) are elected by the people, and therefore represent it. Do you think that the far-right will care more about the climate crisis? The French people is likely to elect them next year. It's too easy to vote for people who don't give a shit about the climate crisis, and then blame them. > either way we're fucked, the point of no return is behind us now The faster and the harder we react, the more we save. Fires are a good example: because many trees are burning now (therefore they are already dead) and many trees will burn (because the fire won't magically stop), it's worth fighting to preserve as much as we can. Saying "we won't get those dead trees back, so we may as well let the rest of the forest burn" is counter-productive. We need to act now. And not by electing morons and then blaming them for being morons. |
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| ▲ | toasty228 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Do you think that the far-right will care more about the climate crisis? Far right, far left, far center, it's all the same: money, power, money, power, stay in the EU, free market, money, power. | | |
| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent [-] | | People could vote for candidates who care. They just don't. | | |
| ▲ | toasty228 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody cares enough, they all like the status quo, unless you want to vote for insane royalists &co | | |
| ▲ | palata 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I said "people who care about the climate emergency", where did you see "royalists & co"? | | |
| ▲ | toasty228 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Who are they? They all are for growth, increased productivity, increase standard of living, global commerce races to the bottom They want to keep everything exactly the same but somehow stamp it "green" | | |
| ▲ | palata 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Because they are those that get elected. People just have to vote for those who are not for growth. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > We need to act now. What does this look like, precisely, in practice? | | |
| ▲ | adrianN 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The people here maintain a list of things: https://drawdown.org/explorer Chiefly we need to replace fossil fuels with electricity from carbon free sources and electrify transportation, heating, and industry. | | | |
| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | First, we have to accept the facts: * CO2 emissions are screwing the climate, and CO2 emissions come from fossil fuels. We need to stop using fossil fuels. * Our way of life depends on fossil fuels. In some cases it's obvious (we transport food in trucks that need oil), but it's too easy to believe that we may replace that with electricity. It's a lot more complicated than that: everything depends on petrochemical products. How do you transport food without plastics? How do you build electronics without petrochemical products (the PCBs need them, for one)? Without electronics, how do you manage solar panels? * We don't necessarily have to go back to the Middle-Age: first we probably couldn't: we are way too many for that, and second we know a lot more than they did. But overall, we will have to do a lot less with a lot less. We have to think about what's fundamental, and how we want to preserve it. I'm not saying "choose between a new game console or a new smartphone every two years instead of having both". I'm saying "do you want to preserve some nature? Produce enough food for everybody? Keep some kind of democratic system?". Of course, it's too much, we cannot do everything that we need, and we won't be able to preserve everything that we want. We need to accept it and start prioritising. Overall, I would say that a good first step would be to get informed about how bad it is. There are enough books and resources about that. The people need to be informed in order to elect informed people. Too many don't give a shit, spend their free time on TikTok and then blame the ruling class. | | |
| ▲ | andsoitis 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > we will have to do a lot less with a lot less. What do you mean by this? | | |
| ▲ | palata 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Degrowth. Either by choice (degrow as fast as we can to preserve the climate) or not (degrow because we have passed the peak of production of fossil fuels and just don't have enough energy anymore). We will have less energy, therefore less globalisation, fewer machines, fewer resources, whether we want it or not. We won't be able to keep producing as much as we do now. So we will have less, and we will produce less. The game is to find a way to do it without collapsing entirely. And the longer we wait, the harder it will get (because the climate will get worse and there will be less and less available fossil fuels to help the transition). |
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| ▲ | toasty228 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Find the closest maths teacher with a polish last name and ask them |
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| ▲ | pengaru 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Politicians are selling to their audiences, there's no more truth in their words than any other sales/marketing scheme. Of course we're fucked. |
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| ▲ | dismalaf 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's a prisoners dilemma. No country can risk de-growth or not develop because some countries either DGAF or actively want climate change to happen (Russia) and will gladly take advantage of anyone who lets their guard down. The only way climate change stops is with a technological solution. |
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| ▲ | andsoitis 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > As Macron said in 2023: "Who could have predicted the climate crisis?"
The people in charge a either clinically retarded or willingly ignoring the problem, The "people in charge" as well as the "climate experts" are generally aligned on the climate crisis, but everyone has been surprised by unexpected acceleration and the very sudden swings. Put differently, you can predict and act, according to the trend, but the sudden and unpredictable timing of these swings is a separate, and more difficult issue to navigate. For instance, can anyone predict specifically what will happen "next" and "where" and prepare to mitigate the impact? |
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| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This is completely wrong. The climate experts are not surprised by this at all. We've known about it for decades. We just didn't give a shit because it was not impacting us directly. Now it's starting to impact us directly, but we still don't really give a shit. In a few weeks it will be business as usual. It will get worse every year, and we will be more and more willing to do something as it gets worse. But we will have fewer and fewer resources to do it, and less stuff to save (once a forest disappears, you as a human won't see it come back in your lifetime). | | | |
| ▲ | toasty228 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > but everyone has been surprised by unexpected acceleration and the very sudden swings It's been predicted for decades, in multiple reports, over and over and over and over again... No excuses > can anyone predict specifically what will happen "next" and "where" and prepare to mitigate the impact? Something bad, duh? And reduce emissions, duh? The things people have been predicting and advocating for during the past like 50 years at that point. Are we still debating these details lol? | | | |
| ▲ | foco_tubi 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | While we haven’t known the exact trajectory of the crisis, it has been known for decades that the trend would generally and increasingly point towards “future is bad” if we didn’t reduce emissions. World leaders bet on having more time to shift away from harmful policy and lost. | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The specific swings are a little surprising, but only in the way that a macaroni jumps around in hard to predict directions if you put it in boiling water. We’ve made the weather less predictable, but we knew we were doing it. |
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| ▲ | cbmuser 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not into blaming people like this. What we all need to understand is that after oil, we just won't have enough energy to maintain our current way of life. Not just energy by the way: our way of life relies on petrochemical products (from fertilisers to electronics). Solar panels need electronics, we don't know if we can build/maintain them at scale without computers that need petrochemical products. So we need as much as we can of everything. Both renewables and nuclear. | |
| ▲ | throwaway894345 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Who is opposing nuclear power? Or are you trying to imply that advocating for renewables is “opposing nuclear power”? | | |
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| ▲ | tuco86 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I always find it interesting when politicians mention temperature target goals.. what are you still talking about, it's done. We now need to worry about the hundreds of millions of people that are neither asylum migrants or economic migrant but survival migrants. The real discussion will become how we keep those out very soon. And since there are no good solutions from the "good" people who ignored everything and got us into this mess it will be the bad people giving us the only remaining "solution": violence. |
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| ▲ | palata 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > what are you still talking about, it's done It's not. The climate will warm as much as we emit CO2. Sure, the CO2 that we have already emitted won't leave. We've passed 1.5C, that won't come back in our lifetime. But the more we emit, the worse it will get. To keep what we have now, we have to stop emitting entirely, right now. > We now need to worry about the hundreds of millions of people We need to worry about the problems that are coming from the CO2 we have already emitted, that's true. But we also need to worry a lot about the fact that we are making it worse every single day. We are not reducing our CO2 emissions, we are increasing them right now. Are you worried about hundreds of millions of refugees? The way it's going, we'll reach 4C. It means that billions of people will have to move. I don't think we can still use the concept of "refugee" when its entire countries that need to move because their part of the world has become so hot that humans cannot survive outside without life support (that's what will happen to billions of people with 4C). At this point, it's entire countries moving with their military, it's just global war. | | |
| ▲ | tuco86 3 days ago | parent [-] | | hundreds of millions of people coming to europe (i didn't mention) is still lowballing on purpose. sure it's billions, but not all will go to one place was my thinking here. you are talking reason, you are in the wrong timeline buddy. i'm talking about what we will chose as a society, i feel we can't help ourselves. You can convince a person (me certainly) that we should stop immediately (or very very short time frame). But most people have experienced their entire lifetime of propaganda and fallacious arguments that words and reason have lost all meaning. We are still getting cooked so slowly that people will only see unrelated incidents for a long time. World War(s) 3 is what the survivors will call it. |
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