Remix.run Logo
laxisOp 4 hours ago

We need way more research on batteries. People cant ingine what is possible if we make battery 10x energy dense.

trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I can - it’s called a bomb. Some of the problems with batteries are heat dissipation (one of those problems that superconductors would mostly solve), fire safety, and end of life disposal. Higher energy density makes it even worse.

A good place to start would be a BMS on individual cells that monitors them for general degradation, unexpected discharge, unexpected temperature changes, and can remove a failing cell from the array.

thechao 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Gasoline has 10x the energy (MJ/Kg) than TNT, but it's not a "bomb". Being a "bomb" is about energy release rate. A battery is still controlled by its chemistry.

vikramkr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Liquid gasoline does not have anywhere near the energy of TNT, or even a battery for that matter. It contains basically zero releasable energy. It needs oxygen or another oxidizer to react with to actually release any energy. TNT and batteries' energy density calculations include the oxidizer and the oxidizer is in close proximity to the fuel (molecularly so in the case of TNT). If you 10x the "energy content" of gasoline it's still rate limited by access to oxygen. If you 10x the energy density of a battery (the type with the oxidizer contained within the battery, not a fuel cell or metal air battery) you've got 10x the energy ready to be released quickly if oxidizer and fuel mix in unfortunate ways

csours 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's an interesting discussion, because if you assume access to atmospheric oxygen, gasoline is MUCH more energy dense.

    TNT.....:  4 kJ/gram and  7 MJ/liter
 
    Gasoline: 43 kJ/gram and 33 MJ/liter
saltcured 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The previous point is fair though. What is the energy density of gasoline in a stoichiometric mixture with its oxidizer and not already detonated? That's where TNT beats it by a long shot. The mixture with any chance of being stored would be some relatively low pressure gas.

Edit: Or, a fair closed-system comparison to a battery would need to include a liquid oxygen tank or similar so you have the two components stored but can control the delivery...

ux266478 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

In the context of the conversation, it doesn't actually refute the point though, which is that explosive danger is contingent on a much broader set of relations than simple energy density. Gasoline just demonstrates the disconnect. Tacking on additional conditions to make high-density batteries dangerous is exactly what the engineering goal should be.

As a stupid example, if we have a high density battery technology that never explodes unless, say, under magnetic forces only seen being produced by magnetars, that's a pretty safe battery.

SV_BubbleTime 11 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Air is usually quite available though.

ranger_danger 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That's a huge assumption that won't always be the case though. A gasoline tank with a small hole in it is a lot safer than a liquid-electrolyte battery with a hole in it.

csours 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, that's what makes it interesting.

Interesting discussions about energetics are best had from a distance.

K0balt 41 minutes ago | parent [-]

I can remember several situations where “a little bit of gasoline” caused a lot of problems. It’s a relative term. You need a lot of air to make it really shine, but “a little bit of gas” goes a long way lol.

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
lightedman 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Liquid gasoline does not have anywhere near the energy of TNT,"

Energy density of gasoline is approximately 44 to 45 megajoules per kilogram.

Energy density of TNT is approximately 4.184 megajoules per kilogram.

K0balt 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

A snickers bar has nearly 5× TNT’s energy per kilogram—TNT merely has the habit of being extremely impatient about releasing it.

vitally3643 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

lightedman 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I read it all and even what is stated is mostly wrong UNTIL THE EXACT UNIT IS SPECIFIED.

And I'd know because I have to work with this IN ORBIT. I've had this conversation a dozen times in meetings with military and government.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
trollbridge 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One of the problems with gasoline is its explosive nature, which the fuel storage and delivery system of a car attempts to mitigate. It has a better profile for burning off than a battery though since it will spill out and burn away from the vehicle.

not_the_fda an hour ago | parent [-]

Gasoline isn't that explosive. You can shoot up a gas tank and it will just burn. What you see on TV is movie magic. Gasoline vapor can explode, but you need the right air to fuel ratio and a spark.

SV_BubbleTime 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Uh… gasoline has a super high vapor pressure. If you start out at the wrong ratio, it does what it can to make that ratio right.

I’ve seen a few gasoline fires that start by burning, and then much more rapidly expressing potential.

jimt1234 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Gasoline ... it's not a "bomb"

My teen years would beg to differ, when some neighborhood friends and I decided to experiment with gas and bleach. The neighborhood residents, fire department and local police also had an opinion, too. (We all got into BIG trouble. Definitely one of the dumber things I did as a teen.)

duped 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Poorly stored gasoline can spontaneously combust, though. So more like a firebomb.

ridgeguy an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Gasoline doesn't do that. Perhaps you're thinking of the following?

What it does do is slowly polymerize, becoming useless as an ICE fuel in time, typically in a year or two. This is why backup generators should run on propane, which has no degradation mechanism.

duped 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

No, I'm thinking of improperly stored gasoline evaporating and combusting.

not_the_fda an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

No it can't. To combust it needs ~ 500F. If you left it out uncovered in the open and allowed the it to vaporize with a spark nearby, it might explode, but thats not spontaneous combustion. Gasoline sitting in a sealed container wont spontaneously combust.

swiftcoder 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Didn't everyone have one of those old mechanic friends who liked to put the cigarette out in the can of gas to scare the tourists?

SV_BubbleTime 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

That is definitely one of those “it worked the first 50 times no problem” tricks.

emptyfile 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

interstice 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some heavier elements have hilariously high energy densities and aren't bombs (on their own), but the catch is the energy release is a trickle. Point is it's not an automatic follow that high density = high discharge.

HPsquared 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Making it require air would help with that. E.g. zinc-air battery.

butvacuum 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Have a look at Electric impedance spectroscopy- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_spectroscopy

Theres a handfull of Tier 1 BMS chips that support it already. though, half of them are meant for traction/EV packs instead of BESS.

epistasis 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The past 20 years have made lithium ion 2-3x more dense, both because of some chemistry changes and because of better pack level design.

And it's still improving at about 5% per year.

dzhiurgis 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Tesla has been around for nearly 20 years. Model S (12 years) has gained 17% of range due to chemistry (rest is system efficiency and simply bigger battery).

100percentjake 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

BMW i3 went from 60Ah to 120Ah of battery capacity (and slightly more voltage) in the exact same chassis through the span of its life (2014-2022, RIP). It is even possible to put the later 120Ah batteries in the early 60Ah cars and reap the rewards, and is a practice that is actually supported by the cars' software natively.

heaney-555 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Range is not a real issue for electric cars. Charging time is, though, and there are massive improvements happening for that right now.

superxpro12 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Tell that to my polestar 2 pls. and then come back again in the winter when it drops another 30% due to the battery heater energizing

piquadrat 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Your Polestar 2 battery is based on battery technology that is 5+ years old. Right now you can buy a BYD car in China that charges at up to 1500kW - close to 10x the peak charging rate of a Polestar 2.

SV_BubbleTime 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

I’m an automotive EE… I find particular interest when someone mentions BYD as what “works” in electric vehicles.

Wild fucking west right there.

jqbd 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would wager charging time is basically solved, adoption is only thing that's left.

rogerrogerr 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, when I take a road trip I genuinely enjoy the cadence of charging. 5-10 minutes every two hours, just enough to go to the bathroom or walk around. I get to my destination not materially later, and feeling far more relaxed than when I was doing death marches in a gas car.

not_the_fda an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Its a huge issue in cold climates.

zuzululu an hour ago | parent [-]

uphills + cold/hot climates, the ranges won't be able to compete with ICE. its basic physics. cold uphill still reduces charging speed, available power, and range, while sustained heat accelerates degradation. Thermal-management systems mitigate those weaknesses by consuming energy and adding cost, weight, and complexity.

meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env. Comparing an engine with a motor while ignoring the battery and electricity supply chain is silly

I still do not trust that sitting on a pile of lithium batteries is safe. NMC does not mean non flammable or consequence free. LFP cells can still enter thermal runaway, release toxic gases, reignite, and require difficult firefighting procedures. They also generally trade energy density and cold-weather performance for that improved safety. Also the speed charging ? That dramatically reduces the stability and lifespan of the batteries. Ton of used EVs not being sold because the battery replacement is somewhere between 40~60% of the car's value.

we had ICE for over a century now, its just like a software that gets continuous updates ICE systems are highly optimized, repairable, energy-dense, fast to refuel, and supported by enormous infrastructure. EVs are improving faster partly because they still have major weaknesses to solve. A steeper improvement curve does not prove that the present technology is superior for every use case neither is using the latest javascript framework.

epistasis 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> its basic physics

Could you ELI5 these basic physics? I've heard many people make claims like this but there's never any physics that actually follows. I've had most of an undergraduate curriculum of physics, so if it's beyond basic, then don't be afraid to refer to those physical ideas.

> meanwhile ICE has gotten ridiculously clean and efficient over the years it is more efficient at the shaft does not settle total-system efficiency, cost, weight, resource use, grid losses, battery production, or suitability for every operating env

Is 30% "ridiculously clean and efficient"? 35%? I'm not sure I can agree with that at all.

Battery production? That's ridiculously efficient. For a very small amount weight, there's an insane amount of Wh that get shuttled through that material, which can then be recycled into even more kWh of storage than went into the recycling process, due to the continual improvement in battery production efficiency.

Meanwhile, every single gallon of gas results in 20 pounds of CO2 emissions. Fracking oil requires disposing of 2-10 gallons of dirty waste water for every gallon of gas. That's a massive amount of waste for only 20-50 vehicle miles.

heaney-555 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates.

Internal combustion is not clean, and is inherently significantly less efficient than an electric motor.

Also, LFP chemistries are incredibly safe compared to NMC, which is what you're concerned about in terms of thermal runaway.

ICE is mostly stagnant tech. Meanwhile EV tech is rapidly improving!

not_the_fda 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

> The latest battery chemistries perform incredibly well in cold and hot climates.

Depends on your definition of cold. California cold sure. Wisconsin cold you are looking at losing 40%-60% range.

1234letshaveatw 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This EV owner disagrees, and I imagine that city dwellers without dedicated charging agree

heaney-555 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

If you could charge the battery in 5 minutes at a public charger, would the range still be a problem?

rconti 43 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Plenty of city dwellers get by without home gasoline filling spigot.

himata4113 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think 10x density is possible without getting into nuclear, at least not with the chemistries we know of today, everything at a certain point becomes an explosive.

Speaking of nuclear, getting tons of the material that powers mars rovers and putting them in every home would generate enough power for decades... At the cost of being able to build a nuclear bomb in a garage.

Aboutplants 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The next revolution will be small scale generation. Fuel cells, extremely efficient cheap solar, even smaller modular reactors, etc.

I live in western Pennsylvania and have both natural gas and electric service, a roof and 1/3 acre of land to utilize. I would love to get rid of at least one of my utility bills and I’m becoming more interested in decoupling from the electric grid than natural gas service. I dream of a future where competition comes to monopoly utilities by way of direct competition with each other as there is a not so far off future where I can utilize solar, batteries and a natural gas fuel cell to cut ties with my Electric Utility. If that kind of competition can exist then the game is on for those utilities to start fighting for customers.

bluGill 3 hours ago | parent [-]

With modern heat pumps and induction stoves getting off of natural gas is fairly easy for most people and saves money in the long run. Meanwhile the grid is switching to renewables so getting off gas is your best investment. You can get of electric too, but on your 1/3rd acre that probably means significant lifestyle compromises - I will be impressed if you are willing to live with them.

Tostino 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Batteries are cheap enough to build (using a commercial installer completely kills the economics, because you're paying five to ten times the actual cost in the US) a reasonable size personal battery bank (~100+ kwh), paired with some overkill solar, to totally replace the grid in a lot of cases. GP isn't limited to rooftop solar with 1/3rd an acre, so they can do it quite cheap if they want.

cestith 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I seem to remember recent advances in TMSR research and construction. Those tend to e much safer and have safer byproducts than uranium or plutonium fueled water-cooled reactors.

utopiah 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In term of dual use nuclear seems culturally radically different from everything else, wondering why.

toddmorey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Agreed, but I think people can imagine and companies are very motivated: powertools, phones, laptops, watches, backup UPS, cars, hospital equipment... there's high demand for durable, long-lasting batteries. I think the research is there, it's just complex chemistry. We'll get there. Impressive to see the progress in EV batteries and they've actually turned out to be more durable than first feared.

raumgeist 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think, apart from finding better Batteries altoghether, we should build multi-tier batteries inspired by biology. Humans have bloodsugar, sugar in the Liver and then fat. All of them have their respective properties with availability and amount. This way, engineering tradeoffs could be allocated much more fine grained. For example, a while ago I read about a startup building an energy storage where they heat up large amounts of sand to store the surplus of renewables. This could serve analogous to the fat in humans.

jubilanti an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Biological power is marvelous, but really inefficient. All that sugar and fat in entire human body only generates 50-150 Watts.

andrewflnr an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Humans do that because we're big and extra complicated. The closest analogue is probably a hybrid car, though ideally you'd want one that can create synthetic fuel from its battery. But I suspect cellphones are properly analogous to e.g. bacteria that have much simpler energy storage.

win311fwg 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The good news is that humans already exist, so you can already use them. It will give them something to do with AI replacing them elsewhere.

You might not like the efficiency of that type of battery, though.

kansface an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I look to a future of regularly servicing the immune system of my battery.

spockz 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

That reminds me of the gel packs in the USS Voyager. At some point they became “infected” and they needed to the raise their temperatures to let them destroy the infection!

jqbd 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think I've heard of sodium, lithium hybrids. But that's only 2, what's the fat? Gasoline, LPG hybrid? Shit gets expensive fast. Probably 2x cost of just a sodium or ion EV? The human body is too amazing.

dmix 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The article says $4B was put into solid state research/companies as of 2025 in the US alone. Seems like they are working on it

toss1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It should be relatively straightforward to imagine — we already have that in gasoline-powered internal combustion engines.

The Watt-hours per kilogram of good Lithium Ion batteries is around 250-280 Wh/Kg; for Lithium Iron Phosphate it's about 180 Wh/kg, and for Sodium-Ion about 170 Wh/Kg.

The raw energy in gasoline is about 12,300 Wh/Kg but automobile internal combustion engines get only about 20-30% efficiency yielding about 2500-3600 Wh/Kg. For aviation piston engines it is a bit better at 25-30$ so 3000-3600 Wh/kg.

So, the batteries, instead of being 10-12X the weight of the gasoline for the same net driving/flying range, could weigh about the same as the gasoline. So, a typical car with maybe a 16 gallon tank and 30 miles per gallon fills up with 128 pounds (58 kg) of gasoline to get 480 miles of range. The Li-Ion battery for that range would weigh something like 1300 Lbs (590 kg). That is a substantial additional weight for a car that could be 2800-3800 Lbs in ICE configuration, so 35-45% added weight (a bit less because of savings on the ICE engine, etc). This requires everything else to also be heavier, from the structural frame, the suspension system, and even the wheels and tires (which is also unsprung weight, further impairing performance).

With a 130Lb/60kg battery instead, and saving the weight of the ICE engine and fuel system, the overall car design could go much more lightweight, regaining a lot of performance and range, all while gaining the huge torque of electric motors.

In aviation, a battery systems of that weight would enable all-electric aviation to go from small performance niches to the default for general aviation.

So yes, it would be a HUGE benefit to achieve 10X energy density batteries, and we do have reference points for people to imagine it.

rootusrootus 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> With a 130Lb/60kg battery instead, and saving the weight of the ICE engine and fuel system, the overall car design could go much more lightweight, regaining a lot of performance and range, all while gaining the huge torque of electric motors.

I think you're underselling it, even. A typical like-for-like modern EV is only marginally heavier than the ICE equivalent. If we were able to drop the weight of the battery by a thousand pounds, cars would be lighter than they have been in decades while retaining all the modern safety and convenience features we've come to expect. And if density improved along with weight, we could make EVs with the same form factor as today but with over a thousand miles of range. Not that we need that, but it is just as a tiny example of how mind boggling the game change would be.

As it is I've only recently internalized the notion that the most powerful electric tools are battery powered (what can I say, I grew up when rechargeable batteries were NiCad and they basically sucked). And it will just get better and better as time goes on.

SoftTalker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Some people might need that range. If you cannot charge at home and you don't have good public charging infrastructure then you might want enough range so you only have to deal with charging once or twice a month.

toss1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, underselling a bit for sure! I didn't even want to get into the optimizations available if cars were really designed for lightweight when the entire motors+battery is only 100-150kg, and the battery can be low and centered.

We could go for performance, trading off some battery for four inboard motors (fully sprung weight) with half-shafts and CV joints, steel space-frame chassis and carbon fiber body — it could put many supercars to shame.

Going for range, same light-weighting, but less powerful motors and adding more battery, the range could get silly long at something like 1000 miles for 100kg of battery.

For the kind of long range options another poster mentioned, with 100 kg for 1000 miles, a few 10-kilo swappable battery packs could make it easy to trade luggage space for range, or bring them to a charge station only occasionally, but not lug them around for most in-town trips.

No question, we could go wild!

thelastgallon 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

An EV doesn't need to have 480 miles of range. Nobody is driving that distance daily. 98% of trips are under 50 miles. Only 0.8% of the trips are over 100 miles!

Also, EVs use regenerative braking. That should help a little bit.

EVs should be built with 100 - 150 mile range. All families with 2 cars can immediately switch one of their cars to a daily driver EV and the other vehicle is a minivan. There are lots and lots of people for whom an EV works perfectly well and if they need to go longer, US has a robust rental car industry. What would help is to let people charge anywhere they park. All workplaces should offer free charging, and companies can negotiate to get paid for charging their employees cars. The price of electricity goes negative because of lack of demand, and this is something that they can offer to the grid, demand as a service.

clickety_clack 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think people can imagine lighter cars and laptops and things. Is there something bizarre that’s unlocked like battery powered space launches or something?

tflinton 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

High density batteries allows us to have dramatically cheaper electricity. Think of it like this, what happens when electricity is 1/10th the cost? Beyond what others have pointed out (electric airplanes, cars that drive thousands of miles), costs for everything would drop as energy is a core driver of it in every good you consume. If you can pull energy where it's very cheaply available and store/transport it anywhere the world millions of lives would be saved. For example;

If energy is cheaper than the price of water you can pull water out of thin air (dehumidifiers).

If energy is cheaper you can grow food in areas you normally couldn't.

When you can transport anything for cheap you can move food to areas that are vulnerable to food insecurity.

If you can store energy at large scale you can nearly eliminate grid failures, savings lives in the summer and winter.

Costs for transporting food would go down significantly, imagine groceries being 10-15% cheaper.

Assuming airlines have competitive pressure you could expect plane flight costs to drop 20-30% improving everyone's mobility.

RetroTechie 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Batteries are not power sources, but storage. The energy still has to come from somewhere, and power generation won't magically become 10x cheaper overnight. No matter how cheap battery storage becomes.

But it IS crucial for removing bottlenecks & replace fossil fuels.

Borealid 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Imagine for a moment that batteries with decent shelf lives are free.

You build a power plant on a geothermal vent in Iceland. The electricity it produces is plentiful and cheap. You run it full tilt charging batteries.

You ship those batteries to wherever you need cheap power, and send them back empty. This works with hydro, wind, solar, ...

Batteries do drive down energy costs because even ignoring transmission lines, they let you move energy in both space and time, pushing all energy costs towards the cost of the cheapest means of generation on its best day.

ricardobeat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Aviation, drones with hours+ flight range, more solar power usage as storage gets easier/cheaper, phones that last more than a day, robots with actually useful battery life, smaller IoT devices. A lot of current tech is severely limited by battery capacity.

nico_h 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Electric long distance passenger planes. Possibly requiring the help of EMALs.

Electric long distance container ships.

Useful portable laser, coil- and rail- guns.

Even longer range drones.

aqme28 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

What point is there in gasoline if we can get better energy storage in batteries?

iso1631 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not all batteries need to be mobile.

A 1 GWh grid scale battery takes up about 4 hectares at the moment. The UKs total energy use is about 2,000GWh a day.

It would need to use 240,000 hectares to store all energy requirements (eletric, transport, heating etc) for a whole month. Even in extreme cold conditions it would last a couple of weeks.

That would be about 1% of land use.

epistasis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Storing a month of energy use doesn't make any sense when it comes to renewable grids. Since you don't have to mine/extract and transport an inventory, far far less storage is required.

womble2 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A month is probably excessive, but there are large regions of the world where its not uncommon for both solar and wind power to be running at <5% for multiple weeks in a row.

epistasis an hour ago | parent [-]

There's an engineering tradeoff between having excess generation capacity, for that seasonal minimum, and having more storage. The cost optimal decision on that tradeoff will be determined by the ratio of excess generation cost and storage cost for rarely-used storage.

Until that ratio falls by at least 3x to 5x in favor of batteries being cheaper than generation, extra generation is going to be the way that grids actually get built out. Batteries and generation are both falling in cost fairly quickly, but generation still has the overall edge in learning rate. Cost decreases won't bottom out for at least a decade, because there's been no slow down yet, so I wouldn't expect this ratio to change for a minimum of 20 years, which means that pretty much a full energy system interchange will have happened by the time that this price ration changes.

So there's at least a few assumptions about the current industry and it's future development that underlie my assertion that a month of storage makes no sense, but I'm confident enough that I'd place money on the bet, and there's very very few things I'd bet on.

Edit: one thing that would break my assumption is the industrial development of storage that's super cheap for once-per-year usage. Most storage now needs to be cycled about 300x per year to make economic sense. "Long duration" storage is actually better defined as "economical storage at few battery cycles per year". There's nothing like that in the research hopper, but that doesn't mean it couldn't appear tomorrow and be deployed within a decade. Something that only gets used once or twice a year has to be dirt cheap, even if you could get 10x or 20x normal electricity prices for it.

iso1631 42 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which just emphasises the point -- density and thus land use isn't really a major concern

You could store an entire years worth of energy (not just electricity) for a fairly dense country like the UK and still have 95% of the country left for other usage.

epistasis 34 minutes ago | parent [-]

Definitely! However I frequently encounter people on energy discussion forums that assume that we need 2-3 months of battery storage, perhaps because they see natural gas or other storage and assume that batteries need exactly the same thing, so I'm perhaps overly eager to respond to claims about month-long battery storage.

I had previously been hopeful that battery storage would allow more shared used of land, but the fire risks of batteries have been pretty severe. And since the land usage requirements are fairly low, there's no need to enhance the risk by putting batteries, say, in enclosed spaces of former natural gas generation facilities [1].

I'm hopeful that we'll see a lot more storage, say a shipping container's worth, at the end of distribution feeders, which helps suck up residential solar with minimal resources, but solving the problem of "who pays for the benefits for all" when the utility is incentivized to keep grid costs high means that nobody is knocking down doors to make that happen...

[1] https://www.utilitydive.com/news/moss-landing-fire-battery-s...

barbazoo 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't that depend on the sources of energy though? Pretty much constant short and mid term supply like geothermal, hydro, tides, etc vs unpredictable or variable in the short term like wind and solar.

As a society relying on solar, I'd want to have more of a buffer than one that relies on hydro.

thelastgallon an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Instead of batteries, why not green hydrogen or green ammonia? Ammonia is needed for fertilizer, storage/logistics are a solved problem. Emergency plants around that can use ammonia as fuel can solve the dunkelflaute problem?

Another option is natural gas peaker plant on a ship/barge. Have a fleet of these around that can dock at any port and supply electrictity. A peaker powership is essentially a mobile, marine-class version of an onshore peaking power plant.

What would be best long term if we have a few hundred - few thousand nuclear ships/subs that can go anywhere and supply power.

It can be the sharing economy for clean power at scale.

epistasis 28 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Capital costs and round-trip efficiency are the primary reasons. Even at constant utilization, electrolyzers are expensive enough that it's hard to replace fossil-fuel generated hydrogen at the moment.

Once you 2x-10x the cost of electrolyzer capital by only using it rarely, more generation and throwing away the excess electricity often makes the most sense.

Nuclear ships are similarly super super expensive. The only reason we build them at all are for their unique and wonderful operational capabilities, as in not needing to surface or refuel. Using nuclear ships for power would so expensive that we may need to up our GDPs 10x before such wasteful use makes sense. (Though I'm hoping we do reach such future luxurious lifestyles!)

bawolff 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> Another option is natural gas peaker plant on a ship/barge. Have a fleet of these around that can dock at any port and supply electrictity. A peaker powership is essentially a mobile, marine-class version of an onshore peaking power plant.

Why would you want this?