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appplication 18 hours ago

It’s interesting the cognitive dissonance this brings out in me. As much as I think Musk carries a fairly reprehensible aura, I would still like to see SpaceX succeed. Space has a funny, transcendent way of inspiring us.

qwerpy 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I’m glad that of all places, HN is still able to grudgingly put aside red/blue team sports to appreciate really cool science and engineering.

croisillon 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

[flagged]

pstuart 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Agreed. Separating those thoughts are valuable here and in life in general.

But like a lot of tech, the cool shit can have serious negative effects as well and it's important to be able to, again, acknowledge both appropriately.

The success of SpaceX has made him the richest man on the planet, and his money makes him dangerous.

mlindner 3 hours ago | parent [-]

He's only dangerous if you operate a legal system that allows people to be dangerous. Elon Musk has never been the problem. As long as he's not breaking the law it's all good.

MagnumOpus 37 minutes ago | parent [-]

The last 18 months have proven that the rule of law doesn’t apply to those who are rich enough to ~bribe~ lobby anyone who would enforce the laws.

(A donation to the presidential library, a new RV for the judge, a PAC that runs campaigns for the senator and rep - and Bob’s your uncle. Might cost 0.001% of your assets if you are a trillionaire. Cheap at ten times the price.)

amanaplanacanal 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The tiny part of SpaceX that is actually about space, yes. Unfortunate that it has been bolted onto the hulk of Musk's AI fever dreams.

Geee 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It is still about space. AI and space computers are just the vehicle to fund it all.

matthewdgreen 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The graveyards are full of blockchain companies who said something similar.

tim333 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not many that launched rockets or anything like that.

refulgentis 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Billions of AI capex for a model that’s consistently forgettable and space computers, presumably data centers in space, are funding SpaceX?

Isn’t the opposite?

SpaceX has an extremely profitable launch program and a profitable Starlink. It’s a straightforward would be better off financially without X and X.ai.

smallmancontrov 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Cash: rockets fund AI

Equity: AI funds rockets

Of all the places that money parted from fools winds up, this is not the worst of them.

yieldcrv 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Even at $38/share it will still be number 20 on the fortune 500 by marketcap

Too bad for Elon gullibles its at $113/share

but its a great company at $38

tim333 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Depends a bit on how the AI stuff goes.

yieldcrv an hour ago | parent [-]

right.

instead of having an enterprise AI strategy, they've become a landlord, renting capacity directly to competitors on a month to month basis, competitors who are building their own compute and can cancel this rental contract at any time.

so they'll use that to try to print rosy revenue numbers, except the size of the contract is until 2029 and the month to month payments can be cancelled at any time.

and they only have capacity to rent out because they don't have an enterprise AI strategy, they overspent on GPUs for an audience that never showed up for Grok, it has abysmal usage and its radioactive because it creates CSAM and is based af. It's just outdated Nvidia hardware that they are trying to recoup just a little bit of value from.

and if you believe in space datacenters, I've got a bridge in brooklyn to sell you! actually space datacenters are the 21st century bridge in brooklyn, whoever is selling you about it thinks you are stupid.

Elon Musk doesn't believe the total addressable market of SpaceX's other business lines are that value in comparison. 25 trillion TAM for enterprise AI applications, 3 for everything else. ruh roh

pudgywalsh 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Actual, literal Nazis got us to the Moon and frankly no one cared. Not then, not now. Try separating politics from the advancement of humanity, you'll feel better.

WalterBright 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In "V2" page 179 Dornberger writes:

"Do you know that your closest colleagues (including von Braun) have stated in company at Zinnowitz that it had never been their intention to make a weapon of war out of he rocket? That they had worked, under pressure from yourself (Dornberger) at the whole business of development and only in order to obtain money for their experiments and the confirmation of their theories? That their object all along has been space travel?"

The men had been arrested by the Gestapo and were going to be executed. Dornberger was also threatened with arrest, but he managed to get von Braun and the other released.

GolfPopper 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

From by Tom Lehrer's "Wernher von Braun"[1],

Don't say that he's hypocritical

Say rather that he's apolitical

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?

That's not my department!" says Wernher von Braun

1. https://youtu.be/QEJ9HrZq7Ro?t=14

pudgywalsh 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good info Walter, but I wasn't trying to get too deep.

Point is to not judge a book by its cover.

WalterBright 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Another interesting factoid about the V2 program is it accelerated the collapse of the Reich.

How can that be, you might ask?

The V2 program was an incredibly expensive program, and sucked up enormous resources. But the V2 proved to be an inconsequential weapon, and did very little damage, because its guidance system was primitive.

The V1, ironically, was effective. Not because it wreaked critical damage on Britain, but because it was cheap to build and deploy, and the British spent a great deal of resources trying to stop it.

It reminds me of the current drone warfare.

Hitler also demanded that it be used to attack London, blowing up civilian homes, when it would have been much more effective attacking the staging areas for D-Day.

486sx33 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

qarl2 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You're conflating politics and ethics.

adastra22 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Von Braun used the Nazi war machine to make his rockets. Musk ran DOGE. They’re both political figures by their own choices.

qarl2 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The important factor isn't politics. It's ethics. Saying it's about politics is obfuscation.

feshbach 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

jaybrendansmith 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Perhaps it takes a Nazi to make a good rocket?

mlindner 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're implying that von Braun was still a nazi when he was working in the US (he wasn't) and you imply that Elon Musk is a nazi in the first place when he's done nothing to indicate that.

qarl2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> nothing

Heh.

hagbard_c 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't need to virtue signal your dislike of Musk-the-person to be allowed to show your admiration for the exploits of SpaceX. I don't care what you think about Musk and I'm pretty sure I'm far from the only one. Yes, SpaceX is doing great, hopefully other companies will follow their clear lead and make space access more reliable and 'affordable' so that those great wheels-in-the-sky may one day become reality.

feshbach 16 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

infinitewars 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

WalterBright 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

atq2119 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think your comment adds value to the discussion. By now, you either know what's reprehensible about Musk or have decided to either ignore it or support it, and by extension be reprehensible yourself.

But in case any bystanders genuinely wonder, my personal "favorite" is him doing what is clearly meant to be, or at least unambiguously invoke, a nazi salute not just once but twice, and standing by it (plus, of course, his political activities in that direction).

WalterBright 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If he meant it to be a nazi salute, why did he do it in conjunction with saying "I give my heart to you"?

Currently on TV is a WW2 documentary narrated by Tom Hanks. It's pretty good, with significant coverage of nazis. I recommend watching it. I'm a bit of a history wonk, and have read extensively about WW2. I'm afraid I don't see any parallels between the nazis and Musk.

ryandrake 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Wild people are still defending and downplaying the "weird gesture." Some people just can't be convinced, even with their own eyeballs.

If anyone doesn't think what Musk did on stage was an offensive Nazi salute, do this: Watch it over and over, memorize the exact configuration and motion of the hand and arm, the speed of the thrust forward. Practice it in front of a mirror so it looks exactly like what Musk did. Then go into work and do it in front of your manger. Or in front of an older family member. See what they say.

mlindner 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Wild that people are still trying to insist that he did a salute. Some people just can't be convinced, even with their own eyeballs.

Like seriously I do not understand the mentality of people who see a nazi salute. I didn't see it when I watched it live and only some hours later did I see people start insisting he did a salute and I was just laughing at them, but this has spread so far it's gotten silly at this point. It's become an online meme that you roll your eyes at whenever people start insisting again that Musk is a nazi.

He was extremely happy and riled up throughout the speech at the most manic I've ever seen him (and Musk can be very manic). All his physical motions were exaggerated. He was giddy as can be. He then thanked the crowd with as much muscle as he could muster, and then turned around and thanked the crowd behind him as well. Just go watch it, not the 10 seconds, the whole thing.

muwtyhg 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And responding to the backlash by posting Nazi-related puns seems like a bad way of clearing your name or trying to distance yourself from the accusation.

16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
smallmancontrov 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He's done "I give my heart to you" on video, too, and it looks nothing like the nazi salute that he clearly did at the inauguration, twice, in celebration of the victory of far-right populist politics in the USA.

The rhetorical parallels between Musk, his affiliates, and the nazis should be clear to anyone with remedial knowledge of history, let alone someone who calls themselves a wonk: scapegoating racial outgroups isn't a subtle strategy and Musk's pursuit of the strategy is not subtle.

WW2 is the end of nazi politics, not the beginning. In the unlikely case that you missed the parallels in good faith, I recommend the Richard Evans books to learn about the beginning and middle of the nazi movement.

mlindner 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's because he was in a manic moment, and all his emotions and physical movements were exaggerated... This wasn't a calm investor presentation.

ceejayoz 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> If he meant it to be a nazi salute, why did he do it in conjunction with saying "I give my heart to you"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plausible_deniability

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Schrodingers...

Here's what Musk actually does when he intends that gesture: https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/comments/1i8ajx0/video_of_...

And here's what this one looked like: https://www.reddit.com/r/gifs/comments/1i6par1/elon_musk_vs_...

Go on - would you give the latter link's "my heart goes out to you" gesture publicly at, say, work, or outside a synagogue?

eudamoniac 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This whole comment chain is so baffling to me. HN is relatively intelligent, but we have people here seriously believing Musk did a Nazi salute on stage and that he's an actual Nazi. I don't know what to make of it.

I have to imagine it's motivated reasoning, because of the people who say it was a Nazi salute, approximately 100% of them already hated the guy. I've seen no one suddenly swayed. Fwiw I have no strong feelings about Musk either way, but to my eyes he is obviously not a Nazi.

BurningFrog 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There may be dumber thoughts out there than thinking that Elon Musk clearly meant to publicly declare his support for the German Nazi regime that night, but I really can't think of any.

smallmancontrov 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I can: thinking that a far-right industrialist at a far-right victory celebration making a far-right hand gesture, with perfect form, in duplicate, didn't mean it.

mlindner 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Well you can start by correcting the point that it was a far-right victory celebration or that a far-right guesture was made.

estearum 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Such highly-public but deniable signals of support are actually a very, very common tactic of extremist movements.

But at the end of the day you know what you saw. Reflects very poorly.

parineum 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Citation please.

parineum 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What about trying really, really hard to believe that a guy with a Nazi tattoo on his chest didn't know it was a Nazi tattoo?

ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

You know we forced that guy to withdraw his candidacy, right?

parineum 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

After it came out that he might have raped someone.

ButlerianJihad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, there is little question about the type of gestures that Musk made, but I'm deeply curious about where it was directed.

Because we who read history all know that the "Nazi salute" or even the very American "Bellamy salute", and the Roman salutes before them, were directed to the leader, or a flag. And the Nazis in conjunction with saying "hail" to their leader. So far, so good?

But Musk was standing at a podium and looking out upon a crowd of people...voters...delegates... and he did not, in my view, try and face President Trump, or any leader standing at another podium, when he directed his salute outwards from the podium: outwards toward the crowd, opposite the camera angle.

So if Musk was not saluting President Trump: was he saluting a flag? Or the citizens? Because if he was saluting the citizens in this way, it gives a very, very different interpretation to the entire gesture, and if he was not saluting the president, or some leader, I do not see how this could be interpreted in the same way as the traditional salute of any type.

smallmancontrov an hour ago | parent [-]

If you image search "hitler salute" you get 30 examples of Hitler saluting crowds. This argument is complete trash.

486sx33 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

estearum 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Using his billionaire megaphone and telling his millions of followers that a rescue worker was a pedophile, just because basic geometry foiled Musk's plan to look like a Tony Stark action hero <3

Truly top shelf reprehensibility

Would be fucking pathetic and disgusting even for a person with no platform. Downright despicable for a person with such a gigantic following.

WalterBright 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> telling his millions of followers that a rescue worker was a pedophile

Only after the rescue worker, on live TV, said to millions that Musk could stick his submarine up his ass.

olyjohn 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not even on the same level, dude. Not even close.

bathtub365 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He has billions of dollars and still can’t help but stoop to pathetic immaturity.

WalterBright 16 hours ago | parent [-]

It was an intemperate comment, sure. As was the rescue worker's insult when Musk was trying to help.

defrost 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Front line rescue workers and first responders are famously required to be polite to looky lou's wanting to make tragic events all about themselves and their dumb PR stunts.

WalterBright 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Musk offered money and the services of his crack engineering team. Now, he probably went about it the wrong way, but dismissing it as a looky lou is a bit unfair.

Musk has also done dumb PR things like provide free Starlink service to people cut off after the hurricane.

estearum 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Lmao imagine defending this hahahaha

How many people have you heard being told to "Fuck off" or "fuck you" or "Shove it up your ass?"

Hundreds? Thousands?

How many people have you heard being called a literal pedophile? Three?

Get a grip lmao

WalterBright 16 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

dag11 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Bet ya a signed dollar it's true." - Musk's follow-up

It went so, so far beyond a schoolyard taunt. All of my friends and I remember the debacle clearly, and it's the moment we all went from childhood idolizers of Musk to feeling pretty sick about the dude.

estearum 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Months after he apologized for the initial false "pedo" claim, Musk claimed in an email to Buzzfeed that Unsworth (the rescue diver) was "a child rapist" who "moved to Chiang Rai for a child bride who was 12 years old at the time."

Musk hired a private investigator to confirm the pedophile allegations (which failed, of course).

Try again kiddo. Absolutely pathetic. Defending this shit is a moral failure for you too.

ceejayoz 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Cite: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45418245

> Writing in an email to Buzzfeed reporter Ryan Mac, Mr Musk went further. He told the reporter to "call people you know in Thailand, find out what's actually going on and stop defending child rapists".

> He alleged that Mr Unsworth, 63, had spent decades visiting and living in Thailand and had recently moved to Chiang Rai in northern Thailand "for a child bride who was about 12 years old at the time".

WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent [-]

That would qualify as libel, and I don't defend libel.

ceejayoz 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Yet here you are, doing it.

Reminder:

> "pedo boy" sounds like an insult, not a charge... This is evident from you changing his word from "pedo boy" to "pedophile".

WalterBright 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't consider "pedo boy" to be slander any more than someone in the west calling another a "motherfucker". It's not actionable, and the lawsuit alleging it to be libel failed for that reason.

6 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
serf 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>I don't consider "pedo boy" to be slander any more than someone in the west calling another a "motherfucker".

'motherfucker' is a common phrase even outside of strictly english - speaking countries , and very few people go on to explain how the person had sex with a mother.

'pedo boy' is impossibly uncommon, regardless of what the singular defending belligerent claims, and furthermore he went on to publicly accuse the person of actual pedophilia.

yeah : i'm sure it didn't fail in court due to unlimited deep pockets and lawyers on retainer.

is there anything beyond willful ignorance ? You and I have had differences of opinion before, but yeesh -- talk about a hill to die on, defending elons' shite behavior during that phase.

WalterBright 9 hours ago | parent [-]

> 'pedo boy' is impossibly uncommon

All it has to be is common in S Africa where he grew up. As I mentioned before, different cultures have widely varying common forms of insults.

> furthermore he went on to publicly accuse the person of actual pedophilia.

That was after being sued for $195 million. I've also remarked that I am not defending libel. A common insult is not libelous.

P.S. People successfully sue rich people all the time, because that's where the money is.

estearum 6 hours ago | parent [-]

So your argument is that:

1. Musk calling him "pedo boy" isn't Musk actually calling him a pedophile, and there's nothing wrong with a grown man using insults (against an aid worker risking his own life to save children) that 14-year olds in the 80s in South Africa allegedly used on playgrounds

2. Musk telling Buzzfeed that the same exact guy is actually a pedophile (specifically a child rapist) who took a 12 year old bride was totally unrelated to the prior "pedo boy" comment, and you would never defend such an action

Fascinating pretzel you've folded yourself into. Not sure who you think you're fooling, hope it's not you though!

To be clear, I don't think anyone here is suggesting Musk should be held legally accountable for anything. Not sure why you keep falling back to this "libelous" standard. No one cares and defamation suits are virtually impossible in the US.

Your original snarky question was what is reprehensible about him. You are now defending his clearly reprehensible moral character, through some convoluted "didn't mean it but it was okay but also he totally did say the same thing in clearer terms weeks later and I would never defend that."

Interesting to note your own motte-and-bailey retreat on this point too though.

WalterBright 5 minutes ago | parent [-]

Let's review:

1. Musk offers money and engineering help

2. diver insults Musk on national TV

3. Musk insults diver on twitter

4. diver sues Musk for $195 million

5. Musk retaliates by investigating him

Neither of them are saints, and neither are "reprehensible" people. The jury in the lawsuit called it right by deliberating for one hour and then dismissing the lawsuit.

And insulting someone and engaging in libel is not the same thing, and is not a "retreat".

P.S. It's fine to write your own interpretation of my remarks, but it is not fine to put them in quotes suggesting I wrote them.

WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Musk did hire the private investigator after the rescue worker sued him for $195 million. I agree Musk shouldn't have done that despite being angry about being sued.

Musk won the lawsuit.

Musk also publicly apologized.

estearum 15 hours ago | parent [-]

And after Musk publicly apologized, he sent an email to Buzzfeed accusing the rescuer of being a child rapist and moving to Thailand to take a 12 year old bride.

Please continue your defense.

ceejayoz 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Musk has said it was a common insult among schoolboys in S Africa.

Consider that maybe "derogatory things wealthy white South Africans say about people in the apartheid era" is not a great standard to live up to.

WalterBright 15 hours ago | parent [-]

I never said it was. It also has nothing to do with apartheid.

ceejayoz 15 hours ago | parent [-]

A white kid growing up in the 80s in South Africa has nothing to do with apartheid?

WalterBright 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Playground insults have nothing to do with apartheid. Nor does it imply that every white child was evil.

pudgywalsh 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

estearum 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What's authentic/"not phony" about literally making shit up about another person?

I'm genuinely confused so please explain step by step.

Do you think everyone around you is just brimming with unevidenced allegations of pedophilia to fling around at strangers, and finally we have the One True Authentic™ to just bravely say the big words out loud?

pudgywalsh 17 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

estearum 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Haha nothing funnier than grown adults (??) who are so infatuated with big wockets that they seem to forget basic concepts like "moral character" if there are big wockets anywhere in the vicinity. So smart.

ajuc 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

False accusations and lies are evil. It's not a debatable statement. Trying to spin it into a positive is not going to work.

16 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
smallmancontrov 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Double Sieg Heil at a US inauguration, buying twitter to boost nazis, sabotaging his US competitors by pulling up the subsidy ladder he just finished climbing, gleefully dumpstering the peanut butter rations for the starving African kids. "Favorite" isn't the word.

tuhx 17 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

mrexroad 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

… says a post from a 25min old bot account?

Snark aside, I’m curious: what about the comment you replied to is a “Reddit lie?” Pretty much everything act mentioned is well documented. Do you disagree with the assumptions made about motivations for the acts?

tim333 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I wonder if Elon has hired people to defend him in social media?

smallmancontrov 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My eyes don't lie.

maxlin 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

tuhx 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

100%

mjcl 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you include spreading lies on twitter about Paul Pelosi as part of "what it takes?"

AlexErrant 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I apply this mindset to Trump/politics too.

I fucking _loathe_ Trump. I still hope he makes America better. But god I fucking hate him. I think his policies are garbage, but I'd love to be proven wrong. All I see is bribery and nepotism... but yknow, he (finally) nominated Jared Isaacman. I'll fucking take it.

Musk is anathema. But yknow, I'm glad he's started the companies he has.

y0ssar1an 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not me! I'm rooting against SpaceX lol

Starship is the SpaceX Cybertruck - lots of impressive engineering, but still doomed by terrible design choices from you-know-who. Stainless steel is just such a terrible choice for a rocket this large. Doomed the whole enterprise.

I know launches are exciting. Landings, doubly so. But eight launches to get to the moon is not a good rocket. Sorry.

amazingamazing 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

which rockets have you worked on? are you in the aerospace industry?

enraged_camel 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Your takes are hotter than a launch pad with all 33 raptors firing!

Garrrrrr 17 hours ago | parent [-]

and costs taxpayers billions compared to our working models 60 years ago. Great innovation

FL33TW00D 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I remember the Saturn V being caught by chopsticks in mid air too.

Starship is fantastic value for money compared to Artemis!

y0ssar1an 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Saturn V didn't take 8 launches and 9 orbital fueling operations to get to the moon.

PopePompus 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

at-fates-hands 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>> Stainless steel is just such a terrible choice for a rocket this large.

Honest question, but what do they usually use?

ggreer 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Aluminum alloy and carbon fiber, because both have high strength to weight ratios. Steel is denser, so its specific strength isn't as high. But it retains strength at both lower & higher temperatures, and it's much cheaper. It's also cheaper/quicker to modify a steel design, as welding is easier than aluminum (at least for low carbon steels used in Starship). And if the same structure were made of carbon fiber, it would likely have to be fabricated from scratch.

I think choosing steel has helped Starship, as it allowed the ship to survive reentry and land in the ocean despite heat shield failures. Had the ship been made of aluminum, I'm certain earlier missions would have broken up when the aluminum heated up and lost its strength.

y0ssar1an 11 hours ago | parent [-]

you should come back to this comment in 10 years. stainless steel starship will not have left LEO.

ggreer 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Does this mean you think Starship HLS will fail? It will use a steel structure and is planned to be part of future Artemis missions.

Also are you willing to stake money on that claim? How about this: If before July 25th, 2036, any version of Starship made primarily of steel (HLS, future Mars versions, etc) has an apogee above 2,000km, you pay me $1,000. If not, I pay you $1,000. If you like, we can bet some other amount up to $10k. And if you prefer, the loser could donate the amount to a non-profit/charity of the winner's choosing.

17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]