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bluGill 4 hours ago

I don't care how it happened someone should be arrested for illegal intrusion. Agents don't work on their own, someone is responsible. If nobody else the CEO for allowing something unsupervised.

Hugging face also needs someone arrested for not providing security but that is a lesser charge.

rubyfan 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Being a poorly equipped victim still isn’t a crime thankfully.

It may or may not be a crime and typically the damaged party is pressing the charges. One would argue there is no actual damage here.

3 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
Analemma_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Despite the common misconceptions from TV, the victim "pressing charges" isn't actually a thing in criminal cases: prosecutors can choose to put someone on trial even if the victim doesn't want that. In practice this is somewhat rare, but it certainly can happen. In my reply to tokioyoyo below I laid out why this is one instance where the government should prosecute even if HuggingFace doesn't want it to.

rubyfan an hour ago | parent | next [-]

But what do you honestly expect would happen? It’s “an accident” with no actual damages.

famouswaffles 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Criminal Cases of 'hacking' require specific intent. What you're asking is that the prosecution attempt to prove Open AI intended to infiltrate Huggingface maliciously, all while the victim is saying 'no harm no foul'.

No offense but prosecutors have better things to do with their time.

bluGill 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't care about intent. That it happened is unacceptable. Ignorance is not an excuse

johntb86 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Intent often matters in the law (aside from certain laws with strict liability). You intentionally drive your car into someone you hate and kill them => murder, go straight to jail. You're driving along normally and someone who's chasing their pet cat suddenly runs into traffic and you hit them => no charges. Sometimes you can be charged with negligence for not taking enough care to prevent something, but then you have to deal with the tricky question of how much care is enough.

an hour ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
tokioyoyo 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What? Both sides are cool with it, why would anyone be arrested and etc.?

michaelt 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Many legal traditions don’t require a victim. It’s the state that prosecutes, not the victim.

As a practical matter it would be difficult to prosecute an assault where the victim opposed the prosecution, so most states wouldn’t bother - but for things like speeding and dealing drugs the law has been broken despite the lack of a victim.

HumblyTossed 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because if a human, say a Aaron Swartz type, were to have done it, they'd destroy him.

ethin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because a crime was committed, and a pretty serious one at that?

If I blow up your house or steel $100000 from you and we both resolve our differences out of band, should I just be allowed to go about my day like I never did anything, or should I be punished for the crimes I committed? If I am not punished, it makes a mockery of the law that is (supposed) to have protected you, and if it happens repeatedly people will start wondering why the law even should exist if it clearly and obviously doesn't work. Granted, this has yet to happen again, but if OAI isn't punished it sets a very bad baseline precedent: that if I just hack you with an AI model, it's a-okay, and you can't do anything about it because eh, it's all good man!

ACCount37 an hour ago | parent | next [-]

If I steal $100000 from you, and you decide you value your relationship with me more than you value that $100000? Yep, you can just decide to let me have it and let it slide.

Believe it or not, deciding that you weren't wronged and not suing isn't a crime. It happens all the time. What people do with each other is up to them.

Did Bob allow his friend Jack to borrow his truck? No. Does Bob want to sue Jack for taking his truck anyway, and driving it into a ditch? No. Does Jack owe Bob big time for the mess he caused? Yes, but not in any formal legally binding way.

This works for corporations too. When two corporations find themselves at odds, threat of legal action is often used by one company against another as a leverage to resolve things behind closed doors instead. In a more amicable fashion - with no legal expenses of a protracted court battle and no loss of reputation on either side.

Alpha3031 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

A lawsuit is not the same as a criminal prosecution. One is supposed to remedy damages, the other is supposed to be because it is in the public interest that people follow laws and we don't devolve into anarchy (or more dangerously, some might-makes-right society where it is more beneficial to appease the powerful than it is to pursue what is just).

It is possible for a prosecutor to decide it is not in the public interest to persue a prosecution (or that there isn't sufficient evidence to prove a criminal action beyond reasonable doubt), and certainly the victim's opinion could be considered, but ultimately whether criminal charges should be pursued is and ought to be based on a different test to civil matters, one focused on the public interest rather than mere restoration.

Peacefulz an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I agree with your stance mostly. I get the sentiment, but both of your examples seem civil to me. Both of those situations can and ideally should be resolved out of the courts, and neither carry social weight.

If one entity is injured by another, and subsequently made whole, however the two parties define that, then it is none of my business.

Analemma_ 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because incentives are aligned properly if agents aren't liability-proof for crimes- making someone go to jail for instances like this is how to get the labs to behave themselves, whereas going "ha ha what an oopsie-woopsie" will make the next instance worse.

Note that for criminal cases (which this was), the justice system can choose to prosecute even if the victim doesn't want that. It often doesn't, but this is one case where it should.

There’s also an optics issue for the justice system at play here: there’s immense public distrust of and anger at the labs right now. I would go to jail if I hacked HuggingFace, even if I said “it was during an eval!”; not doing the same for the labs makes it look like they’re above the law, which is going to make this anger get worse.

Analemma_ 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Actually there's another reason too: because it discourages marketing stunts. Personally I don't think that's what this was, but for the people who do think it was a marketing stunt: you guys should be pushing extra hard for prosecution here. If people can go to jail for AI-alarmism-as-marketing, that makes it a lot less likely to happen again. At the very least, the investigation and discovery process during the prosecution would show us the documents about whether it was a stunt or not, instead of taking OAI's word for it.

hexxt-git 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

even hugging face doesn't care and are using this as a promotion why are you crying about it

numeri 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As agents become more and more powerful, it would be good to get clear legislation or precedent in place that makes either model creators (OpenAI) or operators (whoever is running the model) liable for their agents' actions.

wmf 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If you're smaller than OpenAI, you are liable. If you're larger than OpenAI, they are liable.

luka598 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I kind of agree with them, in this case both parties essentially settled it between for PR reasons, but what if the attacked party actually was damaged. This is as if two friends got into a car accident and decided to not get police involved, the one who caused the accident should definitely get punished either way. Goal is to prevent future "accidents" with the punishment not to punish for punishing sake.

perching_aix 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Agents don't work on their own

This is factually false: they both can and clearly did operate in an autonomous and unsupervised manner: https://openai.com/index/hugging-face-model-evaluation-secur...

This does not require sentience, personhood, a soul, or anything of the sort. It further doesn't mean an erasure of legal responsibility, not in principle, and not in historical practice.

I wish people would finally stop with the spiritualistic reasoning around this.

magicalist 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>> Agents don't work on their own

> This is factually false

From your link:

> After investigating, we now know that this particular incident was driven by a combination of OpenAI models...while being internally tested on a benchmark of cyber capabilities.

Someone set up that test and started it. Whether they outsourced the majority of the work in "setting up" and "starting it" to an LLM or not, they still set it in motion. That's not spiritualistic reasoning.

perching_aix 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Setting up is not operating.

There's no indication of there having been a human in the loop during its operation: nobody was approving its tool calls, and nobody instructed it to commit these specific actions during its run (via prompting or steering).

There's no indication of any supervision of its operation either: OpenAI's engineers acted with significant delay, long after the agent has already meandered its way through their own infrastructure first.

Given that setting up this contraption in an insufficiently secure manner is almost certainly already a legal liability of equal significance, rejecting this very clear structural distinction is not necessary. That is unless someone is biased towards not wanting to grant the label of autonomy to it, in which case yes, this is absolutely spiritualistic reasoning, hence my point.

I do not want regulation to ride on people's nebulous identification on what specific traits and labels count as human-exclusive. Not just because I deeply disagree that e.g. autonomy would [0], but also because it is entirely unnecessary, for the reasons you also lay out. The agent having operated autonomously doesn't wash OpenAI of responsibility - so why reject the label, if not on a spiritualistic basis?

[0] thousands of years old idea that it is not, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton -- see also existing regulation recognizing this idea and working with it fine

Edit: one might also want to consider if the law should bite different if there was a human in the loop, or if there were explicit instructions for the agent to take unlawful actions. I'd say yes, and then that also requires this distinction to exist.

louiereederson 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well this at least raises the very interesting question of liability for an illegal action, irrespective of whether the action was undertaken by something considered sentient or a person.