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douglee650 2 hours ago

Author failed to explain the dash universe and their semantic assignments.

- em dash: adjoining thought (Hey, so — <declaration>)

- en dash: expresses a range (1–100)

- dash: compounds word-parts (Sarbanes-Oxley)

I'd also like to see more concise philosophy around em v. ellipsis, "limerance" is poetic (and ironically antithetical to this "essay" … and what of parens?). In short, em is communication and ellipsis is personal.

I offer this feedback as a humorously offended fan of all sidecar prose (dash, ellipsis, parens, quotes, and meta typographical treatments) pre-AI era.

Finally, I'd love to hear from this author regarding modern use of period in modern comunication, with canonical use-case of bulleted list as example.

sheept 16 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> - dash: compounds word-parts (Sarbanes-Oxley)

That's a hyphen, and (to be pedantic) style guides usually do not consider it a dash.

There's also the 2-em dash in some style guides for redacting words, and since care needs to be taken to avoid a line wrap between the em dashes, Unicode has a character for it: ⸺

Finally,

> - em dash: adjoining thought (Hey, so — <declaration>)

This use is sometimes discouraged by style guides, and in many cases, it can be replaced with a colon, comma, or semicolon.

In general, even before AI, the em dash is often considered overused.[0] My guess is that the em dash is perceived as sounding educated, so novice writers who learn about it end up using it recklessly, and LLMs could've picked up this habit from them.

[0]: https://slate.com/human-interest/2011/05/em-dashes-why-write...

tracker1 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I just know that MS-Word will replace a hyphen with an em dash in practical use, which is a big part of why I didn't really pick it out as an AI thing in general. Though AI, in particular Chat GPT, does tend to use a lot of them.

treetalker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Fun fact! Where a compound term is formed by joining two nouns of equal importance — such as Sarbanes–Oxley or attorney–client privilege — an en-dash, not a hyphen, should be used.

skinfaxi an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Apparently the first use of the hyphen disagrees:

> The first known documentation of the hyphen is in the grammatical works of Dionysius Thrax. At the time, hyphenation was joining two pieces of text that might otherwise be read as two separate words by a low tie mark. This was necessary due to the ambiguity inherent in the lack of word spacing. In Greek these marks were known as enotikon, officially romanized as a hyphen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyphen

pimlottc 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

That’s the first use, and in another language to boot. Usage changes over time.

an hour ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
FabHK an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Furthermore, the conventions for the first (parenthetical) use case, as far as I understand, are either em-dash without spaces (Anglosphere convention), or en-dash with adjoining spaces (Continental convention: German, French, etc.), but rarely em-dash with spaces (as in the article).

rrr_oh_man 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

> em-dash with spaces

my favourite (and I hope LLMs never converge to use it)

xg15 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not to forget the chōonpu ー to mark elongated vowels in Japanese.

Konnichiwaー

Waterluvian an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

With HTML, I can do everything as a <div> and the eyeball reader doesn't know/care. Where it matters is that I'm stripping semantic meaning, which hurts computers and possible accessibility devices.

Most of my life, the same has been true about dashes. I use - for every one of the kinds you provided because - lives on my keyboard.

Is there real value in caring? Does it have the same semantic—stripping effect for computers/accessibility devices? The part of me wondering if I really should care is trying to suss out if this is a real problem or just an argument for semantics pedantics.

ikesau an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I can't think of any case where a human gets confused by some text because a hyphen character was used instead of an em-dash, and maybe that's what you mean by real value.

But I see you using an em-dash to hyphenate "semantic-stripping" as a joke, which is funny. Is that real value? Is conveying to others that you're educated real value?

douglee650 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Only when responding to rants, i.e. pedantry for fun. Live a little!

tshaddox an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m surprised to see that you put spaces around the em dash in your example.

douglee650 33 minutes ago | parent [-]

Know the rules, fight the rules, I guess. More readable, but I’ve since regressed as tooling comes into play. Maybe it’s a good way to still use ems and differentiate from AI.

msisk6 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

Looks and readability matter in writing. I always uses spaces on either side of the em-dash; looks too crowded otherwise to my eye.

I've been doing doing it that way for so long I still often use the "--" construct from way back in ascii email days.

At least I've gotten past the two-spaces after a period I learned from the typewriter. Most of the time, anyway.

MengerSponge 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sounds like you'll appreciate my favorite related bit of typographic dash pedantry, from https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/em-dash-en-dash-how-...

If you want to be official about things, use the en dash to replace a hyphen in compound adjectives when at least one of the elements is a two-word compound.

    the pre–Websterburg Bakery era
The thinking is that using a hyphen here, as in “the pre-Websterburg Bakery era,” risks the suggestion that pre attaches only to Websterburg. It’s unlikely, though, that a reader would truly be confused.

n.b. I don't know how to code an endash here. Would love to learn!

EGreg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In many countries around the world, em dashes also express dialogue!

I grew up reading novels and plays

Inspector Lestrade and Holmes were speaking:

— What’s up?

— Not much

— Cool.

macintux an hour ago | parent [-]

em dashes are also sometimes used to express interruption in dialog.

"I was thinking—"

"Well, there's your first mistake"

mc32 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which one is the minus symbol?

WillAdams 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

None, it is a separate character/code point and is notable for aligning with the + and having the same width.

matteason 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

U+2212: −

https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+2212

QuercusMax 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

which one of those is a hyphen?