| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago |
| The idea that a state court in one particular state can enforce such an absurd law against a company that likely has no business operations or servers in the state is ridiculous. I don't care if you like the porn site in question or not, or condone or endorse its content. This is a slippery slope towards every regional tinpot dictator legislature attempting to censor the internet by having an entity's domain name revoked. .com in particular has also been well proven over the past 5 to 10 years to be vulnerable to federal court orders to seize domains at the registrar level. That's not really anything new. It's a known risk for anyone building a corporate brand/identity around a specific .com domain name. What's new is this is being done from the state court level. (Edit: To be clear, in my opinion, a US State court completely lacks jurisdiction on this matter). |
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| ▲ | dabluecaboose a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| > The idea that a state court in one particular state can enforce such an absurd law against a company that likely has no business operations or servers in the state is ridiculous. I agree. California has been doing this since 2022 [1][2] and it's equally indefensible. States should not be allowed to wield their size and influence as a cudgel against other states and jurisdictions. [1] https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm... [2] https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/ghost-gun-crackdown-a... |
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| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | Interestingly if you browse American-hosted online internet firearms accessories websites (and FFLs who will sell you something online to ship to your local FFL), for the most part, it's just a basic HTML popup of "Are you over 18? Click Yes, okay, proceed". I haven't seen a single one that actually attempts to implement age verification. It seems that the Internet-based vendors, the same general cohort of companies that are exhibitors or attendees at the annual SHOT trade show, are not very scared of the Californian AG yet. I'm unaware of the Californians attempting to seize anyone's domain name over this issue. But indeed this also seems like an overreach, California doesn't get to regulate what an Internet gun accessory store in Idaho advertises or publishes on the Internet. State to state transfers of serialized items go through a well defined federal government regulated process, such as if a person in Nebraska buys a Zastava M70 online from a dealer in Montana. | | |
| ▲ | MyMemoryfails a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Damn, I didn't even considered this angle. Lot's 18+ items dont actually require age verification online. Yet porn/socials are being subjected to it. Just shows what priorities are. | | |
| ▲ | tstrimple a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Guns are good and equal freedom. Boobs are bad and lead to degeneracy. I hate this place. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So if I happen to have guns for boobs, and I go around topless showing off my gun-boobs, am I a magnificent symbol of liberty or am I deplorably degenerate? | |
| ▲ | Henchman21 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Its only because every last thing in modern life is based on a lie. | | |
| ▲ | joquarky 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Most of these lies can be traced back to someone controlling something to preserve or increase wealth. |
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| ▲ | ImJamal a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Items require payments which usually would be a credit card. Kids cannot get a credit card on their own as far as I know so the parents have to be involved in some way. (Obviously there are alternatives like paypal, prepaid debit cards, etc but it is quite a bit harder to actual get the item). | | |
| ▲ | arvid-lind a day ago | parent [-] | | Hard to get prepaid debit cards? They sell them anywhere with a cash register these days. Are you suggesting this is fine for sites outside the scope of Texas's specific ire? |
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| ▲ | 10000truths a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The ID (and therefore the age) is checked when one goes to pick up their firearm at the local FFL dealer, so an age check on the site doesn't add anything useful. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | Correct, I was referring to the websites that have implemented only the most basic fig leaf of legal compliance (ca. 2001 era HTML popup of "are you over 18?") to be able to browse the product selection, even of items that aren't serialized/FFL 4473-requiring firearms receivers. Like, yes, I totally need to confirm that I'm over 18 to look at this Streamlight flashlight. |
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| ▲ | dabluecaboose a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I'm unaware of the Californians attempting to seize anyone's domain name over this issue. They may not be attacking the domain but they're attempting to leverage the US Legal system to shut down operations. Arguably that's even worse- they can't just move to another domain/tld. | |
| ▲ | LoganDark a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | But you see, guns aren't harmful to small children. It's that damn pornography. Seeing a gun doesn't traumatize you for life, but man, seeing a private area? Life ruined. Of course, once the number of years since you were born reaches exactly 18, your brain automatically shuts off the part of you that is impossibly traumatized by private areas, so it's suddenly completely okay and normal. Oh, and when you reach exactly 16, somehow you're only impossibly traumatized by private areas on the screen, not in-person. Everyone knows this is true. (I don't mean to be genuinely insensitive about the real harms that adult content can pose. I just think there's a difference between calling content harmful simply because it's adult and content causing harm because the viewer isn't ready for it) | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | It also makes complete and total sense that you can sell your body by joining the Marines as an 0311 MOS rifleman/grunt on your 18th birthday, but you're going straight to hell if you have an alcoholic drink before you're 21. I don't know if I've ever met a European who doesn't think the US's alcohol age laws are weird. | | |
| ▲ | Loughla a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I have a cousin who lives in Illinois and joined the Marines. He's 20 now. He can shoot fully automatic weapons in the military and has won awards for handgun precision and skill. But he can't buy a handgun in his home state or drink a beer. Make it make sense. | | |
| ▲ | rileymat2 a day ago | parent [-] | | It’s my understanding, for the most part, that they do not have constant access to fire arms, that they are somewhat tightly controlled on base precisely because the army has learn widespread indiscriminate access is a safety problem despite all this training. | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man a day ago | parent [-] | | The army "learned" no such thing. There was never a safety problem with guns on military bases. Guns were banned by Bill Clinton as part of a broader gun control push by the Democrats. The effect has been the opposite of increased safety. We've had a couple of unopposed mass murder incidents on US military bases since the ban went into effect, most notably by Nidal Hasan, who was able to kill 13 and wound 33 because nobody else had a weapon. |
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| ▲ | laughing_man a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For a few years after states raised the drinking age to 21, you could still drink at 18 on a military base. Even today base commanders still have the ability to lower the age to 18 if there's a nearby international border over which personnel can drink at that age. Yes, US alcohol laws are stupid. Modern temperance activists were able to greatly restrict legal access to booze using anti-drunk driving "for the children" rhetoric. | |
| ▲ | LoganDark a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Honestly I think the legal age for drinking could be lower if only society treated it better. A lot of drinkers are not only reckless but brought up to be reckless by how society treats them, what society expects of them, peer pressure, etc. Similarly to how I'm salty about having to obtain LSD from black markets instead of having a known safe supply from a pharmacy. I trust my vendor, but the skill to not only find the market but to find the vendor and actually execute the ordering process is not easy to come by. A lot more things could be available if people were properly informed and not just fed propaganda about how they're waay too dangerous. It's completely possible to be responsible about substances, it's called harm reduction. Also prescriptions are a thing -- even if I had to get a prescription from my doctor, I would even be fine with that as long as I'd get to take it at home. | | |
| ▲ | MrDrMcCoy 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I've always been curious what means and criteria one can use to vet a synthetic drug. |
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| ▲ | AdieuToLogic a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The idea that a state court in one particular state can enforce such an absurd law against a company that likely has no business operations or servers in the state is ridiculous. Two things of note regarding this. First, note the office of origin: Texas Attorney General, which is currently occupied by Ken Paxton who is running for a tightly contested seat in the US Senate. Second, a state court does not have jurisdiction beyond its borders for entities not operating within same. > .com in particular has also been well proven over the past 5 to 10 years to be vulnerable to federal court orders to seize domains at the registrar level. ... What's new is this is being done from the state court level. Which is why any attempt to enforce this ruling would be subject to removal to Federal court. |
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| ▲ | rootsudo a day ago | parent | next [-] | | And third, there was a default judgement. I wonder what was the value of the domain on the open market, its quite a famous domain and probably had high lead generation.. But I agree with the parent comment. This is so much state overstepping bounds and irony aside, so much for independence and rights by a state that proclaims personal agency comes first. | | |
| ▲ | AdieuToLogic a day ago | parent | next [-] | | >> Two things of note regarding this. > And third, there was a default judgement. Unenforceable and meant strictly for political theater IMHO. > This is so much state overstepping bounds and irony aside, so much for independence and rights by a state that proclaims personal agency comes first. When a political party declares we are in a "post-truth" era and fully embraces nihilistic "the ends justify the means" tactics, the result is inevitable; Take, hold, and increase power by any means necessary.
For if one does not hold oneself to a standard of ethical behavior, where the actions of others do not affect one's adherence to the rule of law, where the temptation to indulge in vendettas is not renounced, and where there is no accountability for engaging in any of the aforementioned, then there is no motivation for seeing those one disagrees with as anything more than an irritant to be dispatched forthwith.And we then find ourselves with elected officials wildly exceeding their mandate, such as here. | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Personal agency comes first in Texas only as long as you're a white heterosexual christian man with conservative political beliefs. |
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| ▲ | 15155 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Second, a state court does not have jurisdiction beyond its borders for entities not operating within same. Where did you come by this information? Article IV, Section I Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | If this was true in factual implementation, then Washington state's assault weapon ban would apply nationwide, which it decidedly does not. Or some particularly red state laws on abortion bans or abortion medication would apply in the other 49 states, which it does not. Or the court decision obligating the city and state of New York to issue concealed pistol permits to people who go through a process (even for non residents) would apply in Washington DC or Chicago, which it also does not. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If this was true in factual implementation, then Washington state's assault weapon ban would apply nationwide, which it decidedly does not. And when Viramontes v. Cook County is decided within the next year, it won't apply in Washington either. Today, FFLs from other states won't ship these arms into Washington - how is that not "apply[ing] nationwide?" FFLs in Idaho will not sell you an AR-15 with a Washington license despite it being legal to do so federally. > Or the court decision obligating the city and state of New York to issue concealed pistol permits to people who go through a process (even for non residents) would apply in Washington DC or Chicago, which it also does not. This is an active area of debate, and a very poor analogue to use - firearms are a Constitutionally-protected and unique area (as is free speech, but SCOTUS has already effectively found in favor of Texas in this case.) Why does my marriage license or driver's license apply nationwide but not my CCL? Why do I even need a CCL - there's zero historic precedent for it (Bruen)? |
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| ▲ | otterley a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | crossroadsguy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One of the reasons I keep my .in domain up and running as my backup email (and just for personal use). That .com domain, if taken down/away from other jurisdictions (the ones that can easily do it) for whatever reason (including a “mistake” or slip) would mean it’s gone for good (because I neither have the capacity nor resources to appeal/fight that in foreign lands). |
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| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | Your .IN domain is probably one of the worst possible choices of all ccTLD to claim that you can publish things on it without fear of reprisals or censorship, be assured that something bad would happen to it or you personally if you happened to run afoul of any powerful people in the Indian government (or oligarchs). Something like .NL (you do not need to be a Dutch national to register) or .IS would be much more legally resilient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_India | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Maybe crossroadsguy lives in India. By using your home country's ccTLD, you have only one source of censorship instead of two. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I mean he's probably fine as long as he does absolutely nothing to challenge the status quo or anyone powerful in India. Which doesn't really seem like an optimal situation for a censorship resistant domain. There's a vast quantity of examples of Indian state and federal government authorities issuing court orders to "remove" content from the internet over the past 25+ years. Take a look at some of the citations in the Wikipedia page I linked. |
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| ▲ | bmelton a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How do you feel about GDPR? |
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| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I worry about it about as much as I worry about getting extradited to Thailand to face court for violating a law insulting the Thai king. I am unaware of even a single person of my nationality who has been extradited to Europe to face some kind of GDPR tribunal. If I were running a business that had any operations or clients whatsoever in Europe my opinion on this topic would be different (in terms of legal liability to the corporation, and necessity of compliance to ensure ongoing revenue from European customers, etc), but I am not. | | |
| ▲ | bmelton a day ago | parent [-] | | Thanks for the answer! It wasn't a gotcha, I was genuinely just curious. |
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| ▲ | applfanboysbgon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The GDPR doesn't try to remove anything from the global internet. You're free to not serve your site in the EU. Texas is free to block sites in Texas. But Texas trying to remove the ability of Europeans to access European websites is a completely different matter. | | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | next [-] | | "But Texas trying to remove the ability of (for instance) Europeans to access websites is a completely different matter." I fail to see the difference in principle from the federal government doing this for copyright violations. | | |
| ▲ | applfanboysbgon a day ago | parent [-] | | There is no difference in principle. That is equally unacceptable. There is a difference in kind, because it becomes impossible for the global internet to exist if thousands of local jurisdictions are being given their way, with conflicting local legislation resulting in global takedown when it is impossible to comply with two different jurisdictions. So this is noteworthy as an escalation of an already existing problem into an even worse direction. --- Rate-limit edit: > Which is why the Internet hasn't been global in a long time, and looks pretty different in China vs EU vs Russia. China and Russia aren't part of the global internet because they have national firewalls and segregated themselves. The EU very much is, and with limited exceptions the internet doesn't look much different from the US, the EU, Japan, Canada, Australia, Mexico, Thailand, Brazil, or South Africa. It seems absurd to suggest that the internet isn't global when I'm in all likelihood talking to you from the opposite side of the world and this is the norm. And what is the point you're making? That we should embrace the China/Russia model and give not only every country but also every state/province/city its own Great Firewall? | | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | next [-] | | "That we should embrace the China/Russia model and give not only every country but also every state/province/city its own Great Firewall?" I actually don't have much of an opinion about what it should be, I was only discussing this from a descriptive legal standpoint. My guess is what will happen is companies will voluntarily target their sites to different regions and different legal regimes (like many big US sites do for their foreign versions, or gambling sites do here). That's kind of what's happening here, Verisign is complying probably so they can still have the TX market. | |
| ▲ | numpad0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > It seems absurd to suggest that the internet isn't global Internet from L1 to L4 is global but WWW at L5 and above was always sort of fragmented. Look at chat apps: Messenger, WhatsApp, WeChat, LINE, KakaoTalk, Telegram, etc. The fault lines for userbases of these apps roughly align regional borders. | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which is why the Internet hasn't been global in a long time, and looks pretty different in China vs EU vs Russia. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | The major architectural difference is that through enforcement of their own domestic legislation, China and Russia both force their ISPs to run all international internet traffic through certain choke points (chinese great firewall, russian "SORM" traffic interception boxes and similar). Whereas this is for the most part not the scenario for major IP transit providers in Europe, the USA, Canada (top 50 by size CAIDA ASRank scale/scope ISPs ranked by ASN which are not Russian or chinese). |
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| ▲ | bmelton a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The GDPR doesn't try to remove anything from the global internet GDPR Article 17 expressly requires the removal of things from the global internet > You're free to not serve your site in the EU Geoblocking is functionally impossible | | |
| ▲ | sitharus a day ago | parent | next [-] | | GDPR Article 17 expressly requires the removal _of your personal data_ from the internet _upon your request_, which is very different from a US state trying to remove a website hosted in and run by a company incorporated in another country. And geo blocking may be functionally impossible but the law cares about intent and actions, not if you prevented someone who used a VPN or lied about their location from using your service. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > .. which is very different from ... And yet still an attempt at extraterritorial overreach. Regardless, I imagine that the rest of us who don't do business in the EU will continue to disregard its very existence. (Except in principle when we write negative comments about it on the internet that don't in practice matter whatsoever, such as this one that you're reading right now.) | | |
| ▲ | applfanboysbgon a day ago | parent [-] | | How is it extraterritorial overreach when you acknowledge in the same comment that you can ignore it because you aren't in the EU? Unlike the site that is the subject of the thread, which has actually been subjected to extraterritorial overreach. This criticism and false equivalency is ridiculous. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I wrote "an attempt at" did I not? Attempted murder and murder have the same intent behind them despite the fact that the former failed. Attempting to claim that as a false equivalency is what's ridiculous. |
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| ▲ | bmelton a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > which is very different If you say so |
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| ▲ | inigyou a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | HN ignores GDPR, in particular Article 17, and it hasn't been taken down from the internet or even blocked in the EU. | | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm curious - what kind of PII does HN make available and has it ever refused to remove it when asked by the individual concerned? I can't recall HN asking/requiring PII from me in any fashion, so I don't see the relevance. If a commenter published some PII about me, then I wonder if HN would remove the comment if I complained to them about it. As I see it, HN isn't acting as a data controller. | | |
| ▲ | inigyou 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can post your home address in a comment and then you can't delete it. | | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | That seems a bit contrived, but it would be similar to if someone else posted your home address in a comment. Presumably emailing HN to request its removal would be the correct thing to do and I wonder if HN would remove the PII. Edit: it's covered by HN Privacy policy which is available here: https://www.ycombinator.com/legal/ TLDR: email privacy@ycombinator.com for privacy concerns which should cover removing comments. In my opinion, that seems compliant with GDPR. |
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| ▲ | applfanboysbgon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > GDPR Article 17 expressly requires the removal of things from the global internet ...as part of compliance with GDPR, if you choose to be compliant. Please name one instance of the EU suing and successfully removing an American website from the internet under this article, or any part of the GDPR? Considering we're talking about an actual case of the US seizing the domain of a European website, whataboutting a hypothetical with the GDPR which has never done the reverse despite being in force for 10 years is incredibly disingenuous. --- Rate-limit edit: > Are you saying that you don’t think that the GDPR text is written to apply outside of the EU, or that it does say that but it’s not relevant because it’s not viable for anybody to enforce that? The GDPR is European legislation, written for the territory the EU has legal jurisdiction over. Why would anybody think it's meant to apply outside of the EU? Plenty of businesses choose to operate by two sets of privacy policies, one where they continue fucking over their American users and one where they adhere to the GDPR for European users, and that is perfectly acceptable. There is no "think" about it, the legislation obviously does not apply outside the EU, nor is it intended to. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Why would anybody think it's meant to apply outside of the EU? Because it's clearly worded in such a manner, similar to US financial laws. The key difference is that the EU so far lacks the leverage to throw its weight around outside its own territory to the extent that the US does. (Also presumably politicians won't be willing to burn bridges over PII handling violations to the same extent that they do over financial crimes.) | |
| ▲ | akerl_ a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Are you saying that you don’t think that the GDPR text is written to apply outside of the EU, or that it does say that but it’s not relevant because it’s not viable for anybody to enforce that? |
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| ▲ | thegrim33 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So, you feel the same about stuff like the GDPR then, right? |
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| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
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| ▲ | AdieuToLogic a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > Of course it has business operations in TX. It does not, as explicitly stated in the court's decision found here[0]. https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima... | | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent [-] | | You're going to have give us the "explicit" quotation, because that link is to a decision in favor of the state. | | |
| ▲ | AdieuToLogic a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Two quotes from the writ filed support my position. The court finds that the following domain name is
owned by Defendant ...
Defendant is not a resident of this state and is
a foreign corporation.
> You're going to have give us the "explicit" quotation ...The aforementioned does so. Until and unless you can show how the Defendant has an established presence within the State of Texas, such that its jurisdiction is applicable, it is difficult for me to consider your position considered and/or informed. | |
| ▲ | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > You're going to have give us To be fair, only some of "us" are unwilling to read a two-page document to be informed about a topic under discussion. The words you're looking for are "Defendant is not a resident of this state and is a foreign corporation." | | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent [-] | | Nice try, that's not the same as not doing business in the state. Most businesses are incorporated in Delaware, they get sued in every state of the union. | | |
| ▲ | AdieuToLogic a day ago | parent [-] | | > Nice try, that's not the same as not doing business in the state. Again, until and unless you can show how the Defendant has an established presence within the State of Texas, such that its jurisdiction is applicable, it is difficult to consider your position considered and/or informed. |
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| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It is known to have servers, offices, employees, bank accounts, business licenses in texas? | | |
| ▲ | monksy a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Motherless.xxx's tracepath is:
https://ipinfo.io/185.107.81.233 Hosting out of the netherlands. Kick their owners are globally headquarted in Australia, their US operations are out of SFO, CA. | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why do you think that is necessary for jurisdiction? It's doing business with TX customers every time it serves an ad to someone there. The law governing sufficient contacts for internet companies has been pretty well established since the 2000s. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | > It's doing business with TX customers every time it serves an ad to someone there By this same logic if my web server physically located in Canada, the USA or Iceland serves LGBTQ content to people in Uganda I should be held liable or dragged into a Ugandan court under some of Uganda's anti-LGBTQ laws? https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=uganda+an... | | |
| ▲ | inigyou a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Uganda would certainly issue a judgement against you. The difference would be their inability to enforce it because none of the relevant parts of the DNS operate in Uganda. It's now well-established on the Internet that a court may force anyone in the path to enforce their decision. ISPs are regularly forced to block foreign websites, without any implication of liability on the ISP's part, simply because the ISP has the technical ability to block them and the court has the ability to enforce an order on the ISP. This is the case when Spanish ISPs have to block Cloudflare. The same applies to the DNS, which is based in America. Thanks to Texas for publicizing this DNS vulnerability which must urgently be fixed. | |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not sure what your point is. Courts generally follow precedent, not your opinion about what is or isn't logical. Do you want me to explain to you the nature of extraterritorial jurisdiction, extradition treaties, etc., distinguishing your hypothetical from this case? I don't have a dog in this fight. If you really want to understand what's going on I would suggest you simply look up the complaint this AG filed, which will give the basis for jurisdiction, which the court evidently accepted. | | |
| ▲ | walrus01 a day ago | parent [-] | | There's also more than ample legal precedent that only the US federal government has the authority to regulate inter-state commerce, which is clearly what .COM is as an entity run by VeriSign, and internet traffic/telecommunications traffic that crosses state borders. There's such a vast body of law in telecom law that the federal government regulates long distance telecommunications traffic that I could paste citations to dozens of court cases going back 75 years. International internet traffic from an entity whose servers aren't in Texas isn't subject to Texas jurisdiction. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | > International internet traffic from an entity whose servers aren't in Texas isn't subject to Texas jurisdiction. Besides the United States Constitution entirely invalidating this argument: Does Verisign sell and/or provide services to Texans? |
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