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| ▲ | cheschire 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They’re using the broadest definition possible, where tax dollars are generally meant to provide public service. But at that point you’re just in an argument over which public services are most important to whom. So then implying that tax dollars should be used instead of donations is wrong. | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > But at that point you’re just in an argument over which public services are most important to whom. Would be an interesting exercise to poll the public. We could probably break the country up into a bunch of districts, then have them vote to elect representatives to get together in some special location and negotiate how taxpayer dollars are spent. They could put something together like "a budget" and then that money gets actually committed directly to the purposes that our elected representatives negotiated about. Would definitely be an interesting exercise to go through one day! | | |
| ▲ | sbseitz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Would be amazing if the reps actually did what we wanted instead of what they are paid by outside entities to do. We should try that! | | |
| ▲ | criddell 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | What do you mean by outside entities? Foreign governments? | | |
| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Their donors. In the USA members of congress spend an embarrassingly large amount of their time on the phone to their donors ensuring they are happy enough to fund their next run. January 2013: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/call-time-congressional-fundr... > A PowerPoint presentation to incoming freshmen by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, obtained by The Huffington Post, lays out the dreary existence awaiting these new back-benchers. The daily schedule prescribed by the Democratic leadership contemplates a nine or 10-hour day while in Washington. Of that, four hours are to be spent in "call time" and another hour is blocked off for "strategic outreach," which includes fundraisers and press work. April 2016: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-are-members-of-congr... > Rep. Rick Nolan: Well, both parties have told newly elected members of the Congress that they should spend 30 hours a week in the Republican and Democratic call centers across the street from the Congress, dialing for dollars. |
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| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agreed that money should be virtually eliminated from the system. That said, people actually tend to be pretty satisfied with their representatives. It's the other Congresspeople who suck. | | |
| ▲ | cwmoore 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Certainly could be more transparent and more equitably shared. Life is tough for people, corporate entities have interests but never actual pain. | |
| ▲ | kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hard disagree, my rep is an idiot | | |
| ▲ | estearum 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Data be damned then! Good point. | | |
| ▲ | Loughla 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I bet you'll find that more people don't approve of what their representative is doing than do approve. Low voter turnout allows for bullshit to slip through the cracks by targeting very small blocs of voters. I genuinely believe that most problems in government would be fixed if voluntary voter turnout was around 99%, and that low rates, especially during midterms, is the largest threat to democracy in the United States as we know it to date. |
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| ▲ | wat10000 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This snide response would be a lot better if climate.gov had actually been taken down by those representatives you mention, rather than illegally destroyed by one man. | | |
| ▲ | estearum an hour ago | parent [-] | | No no, the snide response works because this shutdown was a violation of aforementioned system. Downstream discussions on “oh hurrr ummm how do we decide what’s worth spending money on?!” are irrelevant. We already have a system to do that, and that system has decided to fund climate.gov |
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| ▲ | UncleMeat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Gerrymandering means that the house is a skewed representation of the people. The senate is a skewed representation of the people in its intentional structure. Further, the Trump administration is happily destroying things that are funded by the lawfully passed budgets. | |
| ▲ | bborud 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are skipping a few layers here. Like those who know stuff like «crumbling asbestos air ducts in schools may be a bad idea». Why do so many grown-ups fail civics 101 so blatantly? | | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They are doing the gag where they just describe representative democracy like it is a novel idea. Practically we also need expert organizations and agencies to help advise the representative and implement their ideas, but I wouldn’t describe glossing over that sort of detail as “failing civics 101.” | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can't understand what you're trying to say. | | |
| ▲ | bborud 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | estearum 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Oh no, it's not because I don't understand the civic structure of my society. It's because your comment is poorly written. Want to give it another shot? | | |
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| ▲ | bborud 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You kind of exemplify that drawing on this very topic where a bunch of people sit in a boat that is sinking stern first and the people in the bow section are expressing zero concern because their end isn’t under water. This is why we get people with expertise to figure out what’s important and temper the utterly, utterly childish impulses of easily corruptible politicians. | |
| ▲ | mempko 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Quick question, what is your mental model of the climate? | |
| ▲ | justin66 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | atahanacar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | From my understanding of USA as a foreigner, tax dollars are for corporate bailouts and military. | | |
| ▲ | strictnein 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That is the understanding that you've been presented with, likely by people looking to mislead you, but that's not at all what our actual budget reflects. The social safety nets that we supposedly don't have take up around 2/3rds of our federal budget. | | |
| ▲ | Loughla 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's like 50% if you also count the stuff I pay for that is a direct benefit to me at retirement (as does anyone who pays into social security). So it might be a little nitpicky, and your point still stands. A lot of money is spent on defense and business, but not as much as the before portrays. Where businesses benefit is in not paying the tax, instead of receiving payments. That's definitely a problem, but it's a different thing. |
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| ▲ | petcat 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As an American, tax dollars are for re-paving the parking lot at our middle school, establishing a water district for our town, buying another school bus, and funding our municipal fire department and ambulance corp. Any money collected by the feds is whatever. Hopefully it goes toward NASA putting another robot on Mars. | | |
| ▲ | tehjoker an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is kind of a strange take. Local taxes are for petty but useful stuff because the sovereignty of your locality is heavily circumscribed by state and national authorities. That means the real budgetary decisions made about the future of the nation, anything interesting, anything made with some level of self-determination, is made at the national level. Unfortunately, in the USA, budgetary discretion is used for war and rhetorically defended by all politicians while the non-discretionary spending on e.g. social security, is constantly attacked. | | |
| ▲ | petcat an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is kind of a strange take. > Local taxes are for petty but useful stuff My state has completely state-funded healthcare, and a renowned state-funded university system. USA is a nation of states and those states (mostly) make their own way. I live in one of the good ones. |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 66% of Federal spending is on entitlements. | | |
| ▲ | triceratops 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Social Security and Medicare have a separate, capped tax though. They're funded through that tax. Federal tax is effectively uncapped. Where does it go? |
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| ▲ | mchusma 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree with parent, the full quote is: "The whole thing relies on donations to keep it afloat, which is really what tax dollars are for." I think this is a great site, love what they are doing, and support them (including a literal donation). But a government maintained website for this data is low on my list of things of what tax dollars are for. In fact, I think this is better done privately. To be clear, many of the things every US administration does including this one I also think is better done privately. | | |
| ▲ | bumby 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As a counter example, the government manages and collects all kinds of weather station data. But the trend is for private companies to get contracts to privatize the dissemination of that data through fee-based APIs etc. I would rather the government provide it instead of taxpayers having to pay twice to enrich some rent seeker. | | |
| ▲ | counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'm not aware of any private company that has a contract with NOAA or the NWS to privately disseminate the agency's weather data (either acquired itself or purchased commercially). | |
| ▲ | strictnein 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The government already does that. https://api.weather.gov/
https://www.noaa.gov/nodd/datasets
https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/cdo-web/
etc etc etc | | |
| ▲ | ordersofmag 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think the point is that there has been a push to move away from this data continuing to be available from these sources. | | |
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| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Operating an API isn’t free either and the needs and scale change dramatically for customer. So you would rather the public pay for Google to use weather data on a massive scale? | | |
| ▲ | bumby 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don’t follow. I would rather the government manage the API, like what NOAA does/did. | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | So then we are subsidizing Google’s outsized usage of that API? | | |
| ▲ | bumby 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | As long as it’s properly addressed to avoid abuse, I don’t have a problem with private companies and individual citizens both benefiting. You could easily put rate limits if you think it’s a major issue while still maintaining the free service for smaller users. I personally don’t like the privatization of profits while also maintaining the narrative that companies don’t benefit from public works. | |
| ▲ | simonw 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is this really an expensive problem to solve? Give Google a continuous feed of the weather data which they cache locally. I can't imagine that being a particularly expensive thing to operate - no need to reply to an API call from Google every time someone searches for "weather". | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That sounds like the arrangement you said we have. The government provides data to private companies who then mass distribute it in various forms because those costs and needs vary. | | |
| ▲ | crote 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The problem is that those very same private companies are trying really hard to ban the government from providing the same data for free to the general public, because it would be "unfair competition". They get it for free from the government. They offer it as a paid service to the general public. Then they try to ban the government from giving it away for free to any potential competition. | | |
| ▲ | counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The problem is that those very same private companies are trying really hard to ban the government from providing the same data for free to the general public, because it would be "unfair competition". In general, they aren't. The sole example I can think of that even skirts with this was specifically an attempt by AccuWeather in the 2000's, coordinating with then-Senator Rick Santorum's office. And that was universally decried by the entire weather enterprise. | | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree that anti-competitive coercion of access is bad. |
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| ▲ | ImPostingOnHN 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure, why not. No problem. That's a good example of how government open data can support both people and business. |
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| ▲ | crote 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Google uses barely any weather data. Perhaps some tornado and wildfire tracking for its datacenters, but that's about it. The vast majority of its potential use comes from Android users, which is... the general public. And it's not like Google is a charity, you're paying for it either way. The question is: do you want to pay for that weather API via your taxes, or do you want to pay for it via the advertising budget of the products you buy - with Google taking a decent chunk and selling your location data while they are at it? And it's not like operating a weather API is that hard. You can easily find commercial parties who sell it for less than $1 per million API calls. Assuming you're polling for weather updates every 15 minutes 24/7, that's less than $0.03 of your yearly taxes going towards providing accurate weather information! |
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| ▲ | hvb2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So, research that you pay for with tax dollars, it's results should be published through a private entity? That makes no sense to me. But we can agree to disagree. And no, having all research be privately funded is a bad idea. No one will try to find a new antibiotic for example. Big Pharma rather researches cures for chronic diseases that will make money for the rest of a patients life | |
| ▲ | sethherr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | But why? Someone has to be collecting the data. I believe that should be something our tax dollars pay for. After the data is present, someone should make the data accessible and useable. That also seems like a good use of tax dollars. Hiqh quality data on climate is relevant to many, many organizations and polities. That's the sort of coordination problem that I want my government to solve. | | |
| ▲ | jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent [-] | | Making the data available is non-trivial no matter who does it. There were many, many exabytes of this data a decade ago and countless petabytes of new data is generated every day. How to manage this has been an open question for a long time. In practice access has always been restricted to this "public" data because there is not remotely enough bandwidth, either network or storage, to give everyone a copy of the data that may want it. They often don't even have enough capacity for internal users. A lot of it also sits in offline or near-line archival formats due to the scale of the data. This is a general problem for data models of this type. You need to compute on the data in-situ or it won't scale but virtually no one can build that type of infrastructure at the scale required for these data models. It would also be extremely expensive to build and operate. |
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| ▲ | bestouff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Doing it privately is a sure recipe for ending with sponsored, biased data. | | |
| ▲ | counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Biased about what? There really isn't any Earth observation you could make that can't be grossly compared with other types of observations. There is literally no value in taking "biased" observations; where's the market for temperature stations that are _wrong_? I promise, energy and commodities traders don't want that data! | |
| ▲ | jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Companies spend a lot of money to remove and repair the idiosyncratic bias that already exists in this data. | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Private companies don’t care about having accurate data? Does the government have private access to forming unbiased information? | | |
| ▲ | throwaway_7274 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They do, and they often do collect accurate data. Philip Morris, for example, knew about the danger of smoking for decades, and Exxon knew all about the greenhouse effect. They didn’t publish that data, of course, and publicly argued to the contrary. | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | And governments don’t face bad incentives that would cause them to hide information? | | |
| ▲ | munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's have the government collect the data and private companies can engage in that as well if they wish - both parties can call the other out if there's a discrepancy. IMO the government's incentives are generally better aligned with truth telling but there are reasons[1] that independent studies may still catch the government out. 1. Famously, up here in Canada, Stephen Harper suppressed accurate dissemination of climate data during his administration that was only really discovered through independent analysis. | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I would characterize it as the things the government would lie about are different than the things a company would lie about. |
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| ▲ | throwaway_7274 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They do. Often for different kinds of things. It’s not “government good, private bad” or the other way around. Both are facile views. | | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Agreed. Different organizations with different incentives. Neither of them have the privileged or an unbiased view. |
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| ▲ | bumby 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Depends if the accuracy is counter to profit. Not to say governments don’t have their own biased incentives, but they tend to be of a different kind. | |
| ▲ | bestouff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Private companies care way more about making money. | | |
| ▲ | autoexec an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Private companies care ONLY about making money. | |
| ▲ | groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Making money requires accurate information about the world. For example I was just learning about how farmers hire scientists to grade chicken feed. They are incentived by their own profit to get good information about grain quality they wish to purchase. | | |
| ▲ | bumby 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | You can make even more money if you make sure you have accurate data while your competitors do not. | |
| ▲ | autoexec an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Making money requires accurate information about the world. A company may have accurate information that their product causes cancer, but they aren't going to tell you that. They'll outright lie and say it does, hire scientists to create fake research to "prove" that it's safe, and harass, threaten, and discredit anyone who tries to tell the public the truth. | |
| ▲ | munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is probably an inopportune time to make that argument with Polymarket openly lying about their "truth telling machine" and paying influencers under the table to drive engagement. | | |
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| ▲ | estearum 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Collecting and distributing weather data is a canonical example of a government function, even for the most ardent pro-market believers out there. I almost wrote "even for the most asinine pro-market believers," but that's not true. There are plenty of pro-market believers so asinine that they can't even describe the classes of problems that markets are known to fail at solving – weather data collection falling into several of such classes. | | |
| ▲ | Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Collecting and distributing weather data is a canonical example of a government function Heck, it's not merely "canonical", it's goshdang prehistoric: Governments have been involved in weather tracking (and responding to bad events) for more than five thousand years! I'm having a hard time thinking of any task with a better pedigree, aside from adjudicating disputes or waging war. |
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| ▲ | toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd argue is is absolutely within the mandate of government to collect, store, and publish weather and climate data at scale, as this work cannot be left to private companies or charity. It is fundamentally a collective action problem that will span generations and administrations, and one where there should be no incentive to profit or misinform. Citizens can only make sound decisions, both individually and collectively, if they have durable access to reliable facts. |
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