Remix.run Logo
mchusma 4 hours ago

I agree with parent, the full quote is: "The whole thing relies on donations to keep it afloat, which is really what tax dollars are for."

I think this is a great site, love what they are doing, and support them (including a literal donation). But a government maintained website for this data is low on my list of things of what tax dollars are for. In fact, I think this is better done privately. To be clear, many of the things every US administration does including this one I also think is better done privately.

bumby 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As a counter example, the government manages and collects all kinds of weather station data. But the trend is for private companies to get contracts to privatize the dissemination of that data through fee-based APIs etc. I would rather the government provide it instead of taxpayers having to pay twice to enrich some rent seeker.

counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not aware of any private company that has a contract with NOAA or the NWS to privately disseminate the agency's weather data (either acquired itself or purchased commercially).

strictnein 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The government already does that.

   https://api.weather.gov/ 
   https://www.noaa.gov/nodd/datasets
   https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/cdo-web/
etc etc etc
ordersofmag 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the point is that there has been a push to move away from this data continuing to be available from these sources.

counters 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There has not.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Operating an API isn’t free either and the needs and scale change dramatically for customer. So you would rather the public pay for Google to use weather data on a massive scale?

bumby 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t follow. I would rather the government manage the API, like what NOAA does/did.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-]

So then we are subsidizing Google’s outsized usage of that API?

bumby 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

As long as it’s properly addressed to avoid abuse, I don’t have a problem with private companies and individual citizens both benefiting. You could easily put rate limits if you think it’s a major issue while still maintaining the free service for smaller users. I personally don’t like the privatization of profits while also maintaining the narrative that companies don’t benefit from public works.

simonw 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is this really an expensive problem to solve?

Give Google a continuous feed of the weather data which they cache locally. I can't imagine that being a particularly expensive thing to operate - no need to reply to an API call from Google every time someone searches for "weather".

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That sounds like the arrangement you said we have. The government provides data to private companies who then mass distribute it in various forms because those costs and needs vary.

crote 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The problem is that those very same private companies are trying really hard to ban the government from providing the same data for free to the general public, because it would be "unfair competition".

They get it for free from the government. They offer it as a paid service to the general public. Then they try to ban the government from giving it away for free to any potential competition.

counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The problem is that those very same private companies are trying really hard to ban the government from providing the same data for free to the general public, because it would be "unfair competition".

In general, they aren't.

The sole example I can think of that even skirts with this was specifically an attempt by AccuWeather in the 2000's, coordinating with then-Senator Rick Santorum's office. And that was universally decried by the entire weather enterprise.

vel0city 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Project 2025 called for downsizing the weather service and have them focus on just data gathering and it should "fully commercialize its forecasting operations".

https://static.heritage.org/project2025/2025_MandateForLeade...

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I agree that anti-competitive coercion of access is bad.

ImPostingOnHN 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, why not. No problem.

That's a good example of how government open data can support both people and business.

crote 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Google uses barely any weather data. Perhaps some tornado and wildfire tracking for its datacenters, but that's about it. The vast majority of its potential use comes from Android users, which is... the general public.

And it's not like Google is a charity, you're paying for it either way. The question is: do you want to pay for that weather API via your taxes, or do you want to pay for it via the advertising budget of the products you buy - with Google taking a decent chunk and selling your location data while they are at it?

And it's not like operating a weather API is that hard. You can easily find commercial parties who sell it for less than $1 per million API calls. Assuming you're polling for weather updates every 15 minutes 24/7, that's less than $0.03 of your yearly taxes going towards providing accurate weather information!

hvb2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So, research that you pay for with tax dollars, it's results should be published through a private entity?

That makes no sense to me. But we can agree to disagree.

And no, having all research be privately funded is a bad idea. No one will try to find a new antibiotic for example. Big Pharma rather researches cures for chronic diseases that will make money for the rest of a patients life

sethherr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But why?

Someone has to be collecting the data. I believe that should be something our tax dollars pay for.

After the data is present, someone should make the data accessible and useable. That also seems like a good use of tax dollars.

Hiqh quality data on climate is relevant to many, many organizations and polities. That's the sort of coordination problem that I want my government to solve.

jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent [-]

Making the data available is non-trivial no matter who does it. There were many, many exabytes of this data a decade ago and countless petabytes of new data is generated every day. How to manage this has been an open question for a long time.

In practice access has always been restricted to this "public" data because there is not remotely enough bandwidth, either network or storage, to give everyone a copy of the data that may want it. They often don't even have enough capacity for internal users. A lot of it also sits in offline or near-line archival formats due to the scale of the data.

This is a general problem for data models of this type. You need to compute on the data in-situ or it won't scale but virtually no one can build that type of infrastructure at the scale required for these data models. It would also be extremely expensive to build and operate.

bestouff 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doing it privately is a sure recipe for ending with sponsored, biased data.

counters 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Biased about what?

There really isn't any Earth observation you could make that can't be grossly compared with other types of observations. There is literally no value in taking "biased" observations; where's the market for temperature stations that are _wrong_? I promise, energy and commodities traders don't want that data!

jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Companies spend a lot of money to remove and repair the idiosyncratic bias that already exists in this data.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Private companies don’t care about having accurate data?

Does the government have private access to forming unbiased information?

throwaway_7274 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They do, and they often do collect accurate data. Philip Morris, for example, knew about the danger of smoking for decades, and Exxon knew all about the greenhouse effect. They didn’t publish that data, of course, and publicly argued to the contrary.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-]

And governments don’t face bad incentives that would cause them to hide information?

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Let's have the government collect the data and private companies can engage in that as well if they wish - both parties can call the other out if there's a discrepancy.

IMO the government's incentives are generally better aligned with truth telling but there are reasons[1] that independent studies may still catch the government out.

1. Famously, up here in Canada, Stephen Harper suppressed accurate dissemination of climate data during his administration that was only really discovered through independent analysis.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I would characterize it as the things the government would lie about are different than the things a company would lie about.

throwaway_7274 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They do. Often for different kinds of things. It’s not “government good, private bad” or the other way around. Both are facile views.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Agreed. Different organizations with different incentives. Neither of them have the privileged or an unbiased view.

bumby 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Depends if the accuracy is counter to profit. Not to say governments don’t have their own biased incentives, but they tend to be of a different kind.

bestouff 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Private companies care way more about making money.

autoexec an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Private companies care ONLY about making money.

groundzeros2015 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Making money requires accurate information about the world. For example I was just learning about how farmers hire scientists to grade chicken feed. They are incentived by their own profit to get good information about grain quality they wish to purchase.

bumby 11 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You can make even more money if you make sure you have accurate data while your competitors do not.

autoexec an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Making money requires accurate information about the world.

A company may have accurate information that their product causes cancer, but they aren't going to tell you that. They'll outright lie and say it does, hire scientists to create fake research to "prove" that it's safe, and harass, threaten, and discredit anyone who tries to tell the public the truth.

munk-a 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is probably an inopportune time to make that argument with Polymarket openly lying about their "truth telling machine" and paying influencers under the table to drive engagement.

3 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
estearum 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Collecting and distributing weather data is a canonical example of a government function, even for the most ardent pro-market believers out there.

I almost wrote "even for the most asinine pro-market believers," but that's not true. There are plenty of pro-market believers so asinine that they can't even describe the classes of problems that markets are known to fail at solving – weather data collection falling into several of such classes.

Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Collecting and distributing weather data is a canonical example of a government function

Heck, it's not merely "canonical", it's goshdang prehistoric: Governments have been involved in weather tracking (and responding to bad events) for more than five thousand years!

I'm having a hard time thinking of any task with a better pedigree, aside from adjudicating disputes or waging war.

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'd argue is is absolutely within the mandate of government to collect, store, and publish weather and climate data at scale, as this work cannot be left to private companies or charity. It is fundamentally a collective action problem that will span generations and administrations, and one where there should be no incentive to profit or misinform. Citizens can only make sound decisions, both individually and collectively, if they have durable access to reliable facts.