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lispisok 5 hours ago

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

zerr 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state. It has nothing to do with linguistics. There are many Germans permanently living in Vietnam, Thailand and other Southeast Asian countries, who never bothered to even learn how to say Hello, not to mention any certificate or exam...

jyounker 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I can't imagine any Germans I know describing permanent residency as a business relationship.

mongol an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, permanent residency is more than a business deal. It is a deal about all aspects of life, business or not.

mr_toad 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Permanent residency is a business deal between two entities: an individual and a state.

I doubt that Germans see it that way.

xdennis an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A country is not a contract, it's a culture.

It's quite audacious to want to be part of a country, but also to be so quarantined from them as to not even want to learn their language.

FabCH 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, even if you insist on viewing it as a business deal, what exactly prevents one side to put language requirements in the business deal?

That’s how deals work, both sides state their position and either they find a middle ground or they don’t.

zerr 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Business deal means the requirements should be rational, pragmatic.

mrighele 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Asking you to learn German in in Germany is both rational and pragmatic, as it is a good way to be a functioning member of the society.

FabCH 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, why is „learn the language“ not a rational and pragmatic requirement?

Seems rational to me. Want to live in country X permanently? Learn language X.

zerr 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean, when you have already proven that you are net positive for the state, and continue doing so, requiring you to pass some exams is not rational. PR != citizenship. Will I have a bit difficulty buying some groceries in a local market? Maybe, but that shouldn't bother the state.

Also, you can live permanently without PR. PR unlocks some additional perks, which again, have nothing to do with linguistics.

mongol an hour ago | parent | next [-]

You can be a net positive one day, next day you lose your job and are not. On the other hand, permanent is supposed to be without end. An unemployed worker with no language skills in the local language quickly becomes a burden

Residency while employed is rational. If you want to stay longer, learn the language

vanviegen 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> net positive for the state

Being a good citizen is not the same as (or even all that much related to) receiving an above average salary.

FabCH 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you a net positive?

Just because somebody pays taxes, it doesn’t necessarily make them a net positive.

For example, do you contribute culturally? That can be quite hard to do without speaking the language.

What about defense. Would you fight for the country? Hard to do if you don’t understand the orders.

What about spiritually? Emotionally?

zerr an hour ago | parent [-]

I believe you are mixing permanent presidentship with citizenship. That's why I've clarified that PR != citizenship.

baranul 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly! Though it often seems that people conveniently forget the reverse scenario. Them in other countries is fine and relax about requirements, others in their country, not so much.

consensus1 2 hours ago | parent [-]

One country is not in any way obligated or expected to have the same entry requirements as another. It is based on priorities of the state and those differ greatly between states.

consensus1 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Permanent residency is a deal (not necessarily business related) between two entities: an individual and a state. It has everything to do with whatever requirements that the two parties have, and if there is no agreement on them there is no deal. In this case the state cares about language proficiency and requires it for a deal, so if you are not proficient in German there is no deal.

brewdad 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society.

Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.

angott 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency

Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system to obtain PR. The UK requires a language exam to be granted leave to remain. Canadian federal programs for PR require a language test result to even be considered for the Express Entry program. In Europe, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Italy also require it, and I'm sure there are more I'm not aware of.

Also, B1 is honestly a very basic level of proficiency with the language. It is really hard to be a productive member of society and interact with locals if you cannot speak at a B1 level.

thesmtsolver2 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yes. The US doesn’t require language fluency for green cards. You can even bring your own interpret to the interview.

United States issues the highest absolute number of permanent residency permits in the world. It grants approximately 1 to 1.4 million lawful permanent resident (LPR) cards (Green Cards) annually

pimterry 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.

volkl48 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).

kuschku 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Germany treats permanent residency much more like a "citizenship lite", e.g., if you are a permanent resident[1] any newborn children will automatically be German citizens (even though Germany has no jus soli).

________________________

Footnotes:

[1]: As long as at least one parent is a permanent resident and has in Germany for at least 5 years (the same duration that's usually required to become a permanent resident anyway)

sva_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language

This statement is clearly false, off the top of my head only USA and Spain come to mind. There are some countries like Japan where there it isn't a hard requirement, but you'd need a very good reason to justify why

baranul 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Correct. Seems like various people are confusing the two. The issue of granting PR, is often about an additional tax and labor source for the government of that country.

For example: 1) Low birth rates and high ageing population percentage, this can be offset with immigration. Then PR status can be granted, as a kind of carrot and better tax revenue generation "filter". 2) Labor market manipulation and facilitating international business, where immigration is used to fill holes in various industries.

Why a country would want to grant PR, usually has different purposes from citizenship. There is overlap, but they aren't the same.

pandaman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Which countries are those? In Europe there seems to be only Portugal and only for select categories of permanent residents.