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Automating AI Away(replicated.live)
91 points by gritzko 9 hours ago | 48 comments
contextfree 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A dumber but related habit I've gotten into is that if I want to use AI to do some sort of refactoring on a C# codebase, instead of asking it to edit the code directly I ask it to write a code transformation using the Roslyn compiler API, then run that on the code. The result is less likely to have subtle bugs if it appears to work and gets through a light code review on the transformation (i.e., attempts to cheat with weird special-casing are more likely to stand out amongst the Roslyn API code, and if there isn't such weird special-casing but the code is wrong, the result is more likely to be completely broken rather than subtly broken)

twosdai 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This sounds interesting, I am really naive. I don't code in C#, is there an analogy for other programming languages, like GO, or Python or Typescript?

Like are you prompting like:

--- I need code that does X,Y, and Z. Write it so that the Roslyn compiler on this machine can compile and the code passes the repo's styling and formatting requirements. ---

Or something else.

kaashif an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No, they are talking about refactoring, not adding new functionality to code.

So it would be something like:

Rewrite this Python code to use match/case instead of if/elif/else chains, write a script using the ast module to rewrite the code, do not edit it yourself, also write some tests with clear inputs and outputs I can inspect.

Or something.

bob1029 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Here's the official docs if it helps

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/roslyn-sdk/t...

bob1029 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think semi-automation with contextual and domain-specific tooling is the key to the best quality outcomes.

For example, with browser automation, giving the LLM raw access to the literal DOM generally results in disaster for tasks that need to be stable across more than 5-10 interactions. The better approach is to write an intermediate layer that understands each view and can provide a list of tools that are precisely tailored for each case. E.g.:

  https://myapp/Login
  - <raw dom - hundreds of kb>
  - Available Tools: <arbitrary javascript>
vs

  https://myapp/login
  - We detected that this is the application's login page. 
  - It has the following visible elements:
    + Username
    + Password
    + Login Button
  - Available Tools:
    + PerformLogin
    + Quit
The later case takes a lot more effort, but it also reduces a Turing complete problem space into a binary decision at this particular step.
braebo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yea I’ve been warming up to the web mcp after doing more ai browser work and hitting so many pain points: https://developer.chrome.com/docs/ai/webmcp

lubujackson 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Makes sense, I have had the biggest wins with AI by attacking nondeterminism whenever possible.

BTW, you should probably fix the Beagle link on your homepage: https://replicated.live/beagle/

inspectorSlap 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I find some of the most interesting, and catastrophic failures in my agent fine-tuning come from the clamping down of non-determinism. It is totally the correct approach, but must be handled delicately. The non-deterministic core remains, but now under bimodal pressure.

verdverm 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I think this is less about clamping down on non determinism and more remembering that a script is much more reliable than having the agent do some things. Think making a number of API requests to get info for context or running a sequence of testing steps to generate a report. Remove easy places where that non determinism rears its head and there is really no need. I talk about what I'm doing with PR review in a other comment, as an example.

In other words, are there places where a one liner for the agent would be more reliable than markdown instructions and crossing fingers?

I look at it this way... I wrote scripts over the years to make my life easier. Do the same for your agents and free their attention for the parts that matter.

gritzko 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks, fixed. The runtime[1] and the scripts[2] are the practical ones. I am separating the old repo[3] into submodules since submodule recursion became smooth in Beagle.

[1]: https://github.com/gritzko/jab

[2]: https://github.com/gritzko/beagle-ext

[3]: https://github.com/gritzko/beagle

derdi 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a very interesting introduction to a blog post, but... I'm somehow missing the actual blog post. How does this stuff work in practice? What are some concrete examples? How does one get from JavaScript tokenizing things in a commit hook to validating that the LLM didn't disable tests it didn't agree with, or any other helpful property?

chickensong an hour ago | parent | next [-]

You need to always be looking for what can be done deterministically and what can't. If it can, write a script or whatever is needed to make that happen. Your agent can help you figure this out. The agent becomes a glue layer for all your scripts. Use LLM judgement as an extra layer on top of a mechanical baseline.

> validating that the LLM didn't disable tests it didn't agree with

Provide a test runner and force the agent to call it. Have it emit something if you want evidence.

gritzko 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am the author. I am trying to limit one post to one page. Most people here are reading reasoning all day, I am afraid. Might get tired.

I also aspire to make one post a day. To be continued.

dofm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Most people here are reading reasoning all day, I am afraid. Might get tired.

This is well-observed.

derdi 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks! I actually find human-written text very refreshing compared to what I have to read all day. I'll stay tuned.

mchusma an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think scaffolds and the app layer are really the two big things needed for the deployment of AI in most use cases. In general, my company says for a given problem, we prefer deterministic software as the solution first, followed by LLMs, followed by humans. That's how we approach pretty much every problem. Yes, there are many things that we do with LLMs that we can eventually get to be done with software, and many things that are done by humans that we can get to be done by LLMs.

Animats 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This makes sense, although it's not well described here.

Formal methods, as in proof of correctness, have been around for decades (I was doing that stuff in the 1980s) but pushing the proofs through was too laborious. The seL4 verification effort reportedly used over a decade of people time.

The idea is that if you have a formal specification of what you want to happen, you can get a LLM to do the struggling with the proof system to get it right. It's a good task for an LLM, because there's feedback from the prover.

I'd like to see more non-trivial examples of this. People keep republishing verifications of greatest common divisor or stack algorithms, which was done decades ago.

gritzko 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

might be relevant: https://martin.kleppmann.com/2025/12/08/ai-formal-verificati...

Animats 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes. I should have cited that. He has this right.

oulipo2 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Problem is, usually describing the problem you want to solve *correctly* using formal tool is a task as hard (and often, equivalent to) the implementation. That said, having a formal description is useful

Animats 5 hours ago | parent [-]

For some problems, yes. Formal specification is particularly useful in two cases. 1) The problem is simple but an efficient implementation is hard or bug-prone. Examples are garbage collection, file systems, sorts, databases, and tree updating. 2) The inverse of the problem is simpler than the forward operation. Examples include matrix inversion and parsing.

auggierose 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I wouldn’t split it like that. Formal verification is useful in the case that the spec is simpler than the implementation. That’s it.

Coming up with simple specs is not necessarily easy. You could say that is kind of what math is about. That’s how we actually make progress: find those cases where simple specs are possible and build upon them. That’s the kind of library made for eternity.

oulipo2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It could still be useful if the spec is roughly as hard as a simple implementation, in case you have automated methods to find more efficient implementations, guided by the constraints of the spec

auggierose an hour ago | parent [-]

Which is still a case of the spec being simpler than the implementation (you are after) ;-)

Very often, the spec is indeed just a very simple implementation. Often you can make the spec especially simple if there are no constraints on the resources it can use, at times even infinite ones.

natbennett 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’ve got a test that checks to see if “Logger” has been imported anywhere in my Elixir project, and if it finds one it prints out an explanation of why this project shouldn’t use Logger and what it should do instead. (Which is— emit OpenTelemetry events.)

stego-tech 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Basically what I’ve been saying since OldJob forced LLMs down our throats and pegging performance to usage metrics: why the fuck are we handing deterministic processes to probabilistic systems when it should be the other way around (using probabilistic systems to design deterministic ones)?

LLMS should be abstracted out of a process as soon as practicable, replaced with deterministic processes or procedures. Otherwise you’ve built the world’s most fragile process at the mercy of token cost, vendor hostility, geopolitics, and model deprecation.

x3haloed 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Actually... yes. I was bracing to be very annoyed with your comment starting with "why is everyone using AI so stupid?!" (I know those weren't your words, but it felt like that kind of post)

And then... yeah. You got it exactly right. Once a problem or process is deterministic, that's the wrong application of an LLM.

But I had never quite thought of it in these exact terms. The way I've been thinking about it up until now is that the very best way to use LLMs is to have them produce tools. The tools get to stay reliable and predictable. They boost your performance. But I think you found the more general abstraction of the same idea. Tool-making is not deterministic. But the tools themselves can be. That's why it fits. Trying to stuff LLMs into what's otherwise a deterministic process is an absurd waste and error-prone.

Smart. I like it.

datakan 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thats the best description I have heard of the problem so far. I ran into this recently where I automated a ton of stuff and got essentially threatened by leadership for not using AI. My system produces the same output 100% of the time, is free, and scales plus is reliable. Doing what they wanted with an LLM was fragile, didn't always produce the same output and was subject to costs. I don't think they could wrap their brains around it.

sdesol 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> got essentially threatened by leadership for not using AI.

This sounds made up or your workplace is rather odd to say the least. Maybe english isn't your first language and "threatened" is not the correct word?

datakan 4 hours ago | parent [-]

You sound like someone thats never worked in a corporate environment. No, threatened is the correct word. I don't care if you like that or not.

sdesol 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It is not about me liking it or not. The word threaten comes with implications. This means they acted in hostile manner based on your words.

anticorporate an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Directly threatening individuals and teams for pretty reasons is sadly common practice in US corporate environments and among the reasons I adopted my current HN username.

27183 an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

They usually do it by saying there's something wrong with your performance. If your technical work is unimpeachable they'll manufacture some "soft skills" issue--like saying there's something wrong with your communication. They can always find fault if they go looking for it.

jt2190 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> … deterministic processes…

Just to be clear, software development itself is not deterministic, though? The software developer pushes a given business process from less-deterministic toward more deterministic? When we say we’ve “abstracted LLMs out of a process” we’d also say that we’ve abstracted software developers out that process as well?

sensecall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think a big part is the misperception that it’s “easier” and less effort to run stuff through LLM than to design an effective deterministic process.

Would love to know how you’ve managed to counter this as the drive to throw everything at LLMs is driving me insane.

inspectorSlap 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is exactly right. Abstracted out of the process, or to a point of most optimal application.

hadi121 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I love the way you put this. Are there any sites or forums or places where people discuss/hash this out?

I've genuinely never considered it from this angle before.

derdi 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Humans aren't deterministic. Determinism is a red herring. There are lots of other problems with agentic programming, but this is not at the top of the list.

FeteCommuniste 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Humans aren't deterministic

Thus why we replaced computers (flesh and blood people writing out calculations) with computers (silicon-based number-crunching machines).

hadi121 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree with the humans aren't deterministic, but I feel like that wasn't the scope of the original commentator. Humans are not deterministic, yes. Neither are LLMs. Both should be phased out of processes that need to be deterministic. What do you think?

derdi 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think processes have to be deterministic. Results should be, in the following sense: Both humans and LLMs should write software that is well-written, well-tested, well-documented, and that meets the spec. But this still leaves a lot of room for creativity (or rolling dice).

hadi121 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Oh yeah totally agree

Terr_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Humans don't always sum two integers correctly. Getting the correct sum is a red herring! There are lots of other problems with my beehive-based calculator [0], but that is not at the top of the list..."

It doesn't matter what we are, what matters is what we want, and whether what we built actually works the way we want it to work.

[0] Discworld's Ponder Stibbons would be rolling in his, grave, or more likely his "Early Death package" pocket-dimension jar.

derdi 2 hours ago | parent [-]

See my reply to the sibling. Yes, it matters that the outcome is a working system! It doesn't matter whether the system was created by a human pressing keys on a keyboard.

orbital-decay 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As it always is with these articles, that has nothing to do with non-determinism the author is talking about. Model's input is in natural language which isn't formally defined, unlike Ragel's input. This makes it open to interpretation by the model that isn't trained the same way as you, has very limited cognitive capabilities, and must generate something in very limited time by design, even if the result is incorrect. This also makes it not related to determinism in any way. You can make model outputs deterministic, but this won't solve your problem because it's not about determinism. Words have meaning.

Claude or any other model just translates your natural language instructions into formally defined tool calls. You cannot replace this layer with a formal tool like Ragel. You can write code for Ragel directly, in which case the responsibility for this is yours and not Claude's. (duh)

>What about Claude? Well, my instructions say in all caps: DO NOT PARSE ANYTHING MANUALLY, EVER. (...) It tries anyway

This needs a self-verification loop. It still won't guarantee that model's interpretation will match yours, but it will improve the accuracy. Almost every model will know that it went off the rails upon checking what it's trying to do. Harness has to provide the loopback for this, because the transformer architecture doesn't.

vinceguidry 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm seeing tons of blog posts which seemingly amount to having AI write code. It would have never occurred to me to repeatedly invoke an LLM to do what a simple script could, but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised. 20 line bash scripts replacing entire enterprise software stacks was a meme even in the 90s.

sethhochberg 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The concept of "tool building" is one of the areas my team has spent the most time coaching our less-technical employees on since widespread LLM rollout in our company.

Developers and developer-adjacent, technical people tend to think this way on their own... but every business has dark corners where repetitive, manual things still happen. We're leaning a lot on training and even org-wide LLM instructions to try and let the LLM (by its own assessment) be the vehicle use to codify a process and turn it into some good old-fashioned reviewable, deterministic automation.

verdverm 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Second this, following Cloudflare's post on how they do agentic PR review, I'm working on a script that renders the conext and diff to disk before passing it off to the agent, which generates a jsonl file of comment add/update, which another script will process. Way better than handing it bash and clis so it can fumble about non deterministically