| ▲ | rockyj 4 hours ago |
| This is a total mess IMHO. - The make around 5 billion in revenue per quarter
- The problem according to them is profit margin - around 150-160 million So first of all, they are big! Secondly they are not at a loss. They just have a "thin, non-growing margin". So to fix all this they are trimming down, so they can "return to growth" (which I think is ridiculous). Some points - - They are huge business even now - 5 billion per quarter revenue is no joke - They did not have to buy all those studios - They looked at Netflix, and wanted the sweet monthly subscription cash stream - Then they did not have to give away popular games day one on Game Pass - And finally, they did not have to raise Game Pass prices to improve the profit margins. Of course, consumers pulled out. - Once again, short term vision, crazy decisions, bad spending spree and a constant need to "make numbers go up" and who has to pay for all this? |
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| ▲ | mattalex 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| 150M at 5B revenue is not great: that's 3% margin! The bigger issue is that console manufacturer revenue is highly cyclical. This is hard to see in e.g. Xbox and Sony since they are both part of a larger conglomerate, but really obvious for nintendo. You generally have a cycle of
- "Launch": high marketing costs, low/negative HW margins
- "Mid-cycle": lowering manufacturing costs, large game sales, high margin DLCs
- "end-of-cycle": falling HW sales, fewer exclusives (-> preparation for next gen), fewer consumers (-> waiting for next gen). Here you usually have maximum profits since you don't subsidize HW and marketing is minimal (platforms are already locked in) Generally you have to establish a big userbase during the mid-cycle such that you can levarage it during the late-cycle to be able to afford next-gen. Xbox has the big issue that their mid-cycle was catastrophic, which means they now don't have the console base to get into the next generation:
If they have 3% margin _right now_ in the end-of-cycle where marketing and development costs are at their lowest, this does not bode well for the overall health of the business. |
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| ▲ | Narishma 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > "Mid-cycle": lowering manufacturing costs, That was true historically but is no longer the case. Even last gen manufacturing costs didn't go down as much as they used to. This current gen they actually increased multiple times. |
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| ▲ | chrisfosterelli 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| With due fairness, these are two different sets of leaders and two different strategies. A lot of the strategy you outlined -- buying all these studios, replicating netflix, giving away day one games, raising game pass -- was a strategy put in place by Phil Spencer. Phil pushed for this investment with the promise it would pay off later for MS. He's talked publicly about having to convince Nadella to put up ungodly amounts of cash for these investments and about how the bar for expected return was very very high. It seems like it clearly hasn't worked out to Microsoft's expectations or they've lost patience for waiting, and Phil has now "retired to spend more time with his family" (i.e. been fired). Now Asha is here and presumably has a mandate to fix this and get back the profit margins that were expected from xbox. Sarah Bond, the xbox president, has resigned, and with this letter it seems the previous Xbox COO is out too. There is clearly a huge shift in Xbox leadership happening and it shouldn't be surprising that Asha -- who is known as a business-driven executive and not a 'gamer' -- is going to be reverting a lot of previous strategy decisions. My 2c is that Phil's strategy made sense on paper, but I don't think they were able to manage this many studios in practice: nearly all the studios they bought have failed to produce the number of games expected on time or on budget. It also turned out that overly cheap gamepass would cannibalize their business and overly expensive gamepass turned away subscribers. I think the netflix model isn't something you can speedrun and execution of it turned out to be very hard and expensive. Maybe it would've worked out with more time but it seems Nadella didn't think so anymore. |
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| ▲ | Forgeties79 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I certainly enjoyed gaming their rewards system for years on a series S. $300 for the box, maybe spent $40 over roughly 4 years for gamepass. It was nice while it lasted! |
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| ▲ | zitterbewegung 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Xbox around 2021 had around a 12% profit margin and the gaming industry as a whole was around 17-22% . In 2023 the target for the division was put to 30% . We see this new restructuring because the target was put this high. Microsoft really wanted Game Pass to be a steam competitor which is pretty much what everyone in the industry tries to do and fails. The push for Game Pass prices to be higher was to get the 30% margin and that didn't work out. They aren't operating at a loss they are operating at a goal and they failed the goal. From other child comments many studios they bought probably were below average. We can see this restructuring basically is that they failed the target, the old guard went out as the new guard came in. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-10-23/microsoft... |
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| ▲ | TulliusCicero an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Being a Steam competitor involves making a store that's actually good. All the other major stores/platforms don't really seem to give a shit, to be frank. Steam has like 20x their feature set, and the gap appears to be still growing. If anything, it should be easier to make cool new features when you own the hardware side of the platform experience too, but no, it's Steam that has stuff like remote play together, not PSN or Xbox. | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent [-] | | I don't know if I care about the features, what I do care about is the games and a lean-back experience which is not sweaty. I play games to escape the drudgery of software development and the last thing I want to do is mess with an .INI file. I love the Steam Deck because it feels like a consumer electronics device: it has the reliability of Linux but not the sweat. The Steam Deck is the only device I've seen that works 100% perfectly with Airpods, for instance, including Apple devices. I was at Best Buy the other day and saw an ASUS device that looked pretty cool until I picked it up and saw a Windows desktop with fonts not scaled appropriately for the size of the device. Like, wazzup? Steam Big Picture turns my big Windows machine at home into a game console and does the same for my Mac Mini. How is it you can have the back of frickin' Microsoft and not be able to do the same? Not to say that Steam isn't packed with features that are valuable to many gamers, but just having a great selection of games that "just work" and knowing I can enjoy my investment on the devices I have now and devices I get in the future is worth a lot. | | |
| ▲ | TulliusCicero 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think it's one of those things where people only care about a small percentage of the features, but which small percentage varies. For example, I used the example of remote play together, which is very neat and a lot of people love it, but I personally don't use it. On the other hand, I make extensive use of Steam's gifting feature, including its ability to handle multiple gifts to multiple people in a single transaction, and to schedule exactly when those gifts will land. And this is something that the other major stores don't seem to support at all, a big advantage for Steam for me, but I'm sure there's many people who don't care at all about gifting. |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Microsoft really wanted Game Pass to be a steam competitor which is pretty much what everyone in the industry tries to do and fails. Gamepass is quite literally the most anti-steam strategy ever. It's a massive loss leading (or rather, low margin leading) service relying on a pseudo-rental service to provide value. Steam got to where it is by keeping all its costs lean and developing a service around taking a cut from premium digital goods. >From other child comments many studios they bought probably were below average. In revenue, maybe. That's the fault of Microsoft in two fronts. One for purchasing game studios who always operated at low margins, and two for directing them to focus on quality over budget. Double Fine and Ninja Theory aren't studios you buy with an expectation of 30% ROI in 6 years (ignoring the pandemic in the middle of that). Let alone when you explicitly tell them not to worry about finances. On an artistic level, Hellblade was an insutry darling and about as close as you can get to an "oscar-bait" of a game. It's something you buy for prestige. Double Fine is a very seasoned indie studio who delivered several cult classics. You buy that for a brand that gives you variety from the current "online FPS juggernaut". Those strategies changed dramatically over the decade. | | |
| ▲ | jerf an hour ago | parent [-] | | I wrote a while ago about how companies seem to have gotten the idea into their head that subscriptions are unconditionally good, rather than a contingent good based on the exact circumstances of the subscription: https://jerf.org/iri/post/2023/streampocalypse-and-first-pri... Gamepass as a subscription to make sure you always have something to play, that has a lot of old games or indie games and other games that have no commercial value makes sense to me. The back catalog for any of the current consoles is plenty deep with games that have lost their ability to move units independently but still have a lot of value and can also give that perception of value. Such a plan is picking up pennies, but it's a lot of pennies. I've never understood putting your new releases out on gamepass and bragging about that as your primary value proposition. Many new games are, say, 20-30 hour experiences, assuming you play them from start to finish once. One does not need to spend too much time with "this % of other players got this achievement" to see how many players tend to drop off of a game even that long. So if you put your new game that you would have sold for $60-80 dollars to me directly and it translates to three weeks of engagement on your $15-ish/month (depending on level) subscription, it's hard to see how that is an economic win. Put that game on Gamepass in a year or two, sure, that can make sense, but on release? And that not as a mistake, but a deliberate strategy? I can not fathom the mindset that leads to that. As a deal for customers it seems to have been pretty good but I've never understood how Microsoft expected to make money on that plan. The streaming-video proposition of making a high-budget release to keep your subscribers makes quite a bit more sense, you could never have counted on getting $70 out of a customer for those anyhow, and even that economic proposition I think has proved more complicated than the streaming companies expected. The Gamepass model has just seemed insane. I expect it to move to more like what I described at the beginning. As a way to turn a lot of old and hard-to-monetize content into a subscription stream it's brilliant. As a way of releasing new AAA titles it's crazy. Movie studios played with that model and I don't think they liked it at all. |
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| ▲ | mjr00 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > - The make around 5 billion in revenue per quarter - The problem according to them is profit margin - around 150-160 million > So first of all, they are big! Secondly they are not at a loss. They just have a "thin, non-growing margin". So to fix all this they are trimming down, so they can "return to growth" (which I think is ridiculous). How is that profit margin distributed though? King (Candy Crush etc) and Mojang (Minecraft) are specifically called out as money-makers, it's possible that they're carrying the majority of profits while everything else is a dud: > We have also learned that we are not the best home for every type of studio; in a typical year, we lost 64 cents for every dollar we invested. As an example, Double Fine (one of the studios being chopped) has released 2 games since 2021, Keeper (191 peak player count on steam) and Kiln (163 peak players); these would be flops even for a normal indie game, for a studio getting Microsoft salaries those are enormous flops. |
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| ▲ | tracker1 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | On the margins, that's crazy thin for the size of the org... One bad quarter could turn from a few million in profits to hundreds of millions in losses. It's too close, and there's no way to build/store funds for any kind of storm at that level. Now, I think the vast majority of the pain is more than self-inflicted... I think actual business, marketing and focus need to start taking priority over idealistic political PoV. Let the games target their natural audiences and have the broadest appeal... at a certain point, trying to gain 1% of audience means alienating 25% or more. | | |
| ▲ | foepys an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Billion USD grocery chains operate on 2-3% margins just fine... | | |
| ▲ | adithyareddy 37 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | If you're a grocery chain you know exactly how much an item costs and exactly how much you sell it for. You also simply order more or less stock of the item depending on how it's selling. If you're a video game company, you invest millions of dollars in a project up front, for years, and you don't know until after release whether you: - Make back all the money you spent plus a healthy profit on top. - Just break even, but you lost the opportunity cost of all the other things that money could have been spent on with better utility. - Your game flops and you wasted all the money you spent developing it. It's also highly uneven. Extremely likely that King (Candy Crush) and Mojang (Minecraft) are making a ton of money, and everything else is a money pit where you pour in millions of dollars and you don't even make your money back. | |
| ▲ | jayGlow 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | food demand is pretty inelastic their margins are low but they're fairly consistent. modern games can have budgets of a few hundred million dollars with absolutely no guarantee of sales. at those margins 1 failed triple ai have could wipe out several years of profits. | |
| ▲ | tracker1 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah, because video games are as essential to the home as groceries. | |
| ▲ | MagicMoonlight 11 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | wincy 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | egypturnash 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Keeper needs an optimization pass so badly. Once I finished the first zone the framerate dropped to the floor on my Steam Deck. Presumably it runs okay on the current XBox, but it sure feels like Double Fine's attention has moved on and will never return. Absolutely drop-dead gorgeous but I don't think I am going to ever finish it until I get a Deck 3/4 in like 5-7 years. | |
| ▲ | alexp2021 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Really 191 players or 191k players? | | | |
| ▲ | johnnyanmac an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Double Fine (one of the studios being chopped) has released 2 games since 2021, Keeper (191 peak player count on steam) and Kiln (163 peak players); these would be flops even for a normal indie game, for a studio getting Microsoft salaries those are enormous flops. Hard to really say. Kiln and Keeper can easily be made up for by the sales of Psychonauts 2. I'm sure an indie Double Fine would not have been able to make those kinds of games. This takes me back to Pertinent, another small game from a reputable studio, had its main writer saying that "this kind of game would not be possible without Gamepass". Which I 100% believe. Microsoft definitely didn't buy Double Fine trying to make the next Fortnite, but that arthouse strategy clearly isn't a factor these days. |
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| ▲ | hbn 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Game Pass was never a sustainable business model. People liked it because when a new game came out, they could buy a month of game pass for like $15, play through the game in a couple weeks, and cancel. It was a really good deal because Microsoft has spent the past decade+ trying to recover from their terrible fumble of the Xbox One launch, so they were subsidizing gamers to come back to their platform. With the money being spent on AAA titles these days, they are not going to make any money without increasing the price of Game Pass majorly. The big price bump they quickly backtracked on was an attempt to make Game Pass somewhere closer to being profitable. |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Traditionally if you're going to play through a game in a couple weeks and then not own it anymore, that means you sell it and someone else buys it for their own couple weeks, and the company should be happy if they make $15 per person in the chain. Also this is part of why I'm really worried about how weak the concept of game ownership is getting. See also how anyone buying GTA6 near launch will be unable to resell it. | | |
| ▲ | hbn 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The writing's been on the wall about physical games going away for quite some time now. You can tell the PS5 was designed to be a digital-first system by the disc drive slapped on the side like a tumour hanging off the otherwise symmetrical body. |
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| ▲ | tracker1 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | wholinator2 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What's woke about xbox? | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yea, I'd love to hear specifics. OP is all over this thread vaguely insinuating about "political content" but notably hasn't yet pointed out any specific examples that are objectionable. | | |
| ▲ | tracker1 an hour ago | parent [-] | | At the risk of being downvoted into oblivion... Lets start with Spider-Man... MJ was a self-insert of a less attractive woman than typical for the character... there was a lesbian side quest that served no real value, while being excluded from international editions altogether. The pride flags through the city... That isn't even all of what went into that single game. But sure, pretend it doesn't exist at all, and that there aren't lots of examples of game studios injecting game elements for political motivations. I'm guessing that uou either aren't paying attention, lying or willfully ignorant if you can't see it. | | |
| ▲ | ryandrake an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | None of those examples are political. They might be things you don't like, which is fine, but that doesn't make them politics. What makes the attractiveness of a 3D game character "politics"? What makes a useless gay side quest politics, but a similar useless straight side quest not-politics? | | |
| ▲ | tracker1 42 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Injecting LGBTQ+, then excluding it for certain markets is absolutely political. | | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 23 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Having a realistic amount of LGBTQ people/interactions in a big story shouldn't qualify as "political". Removing it for certain markets is much more political, and they should not do that, but I get the impression that isn't the outcome you want. Edit: Also the average level in the real world is a lot more than 1%. 1% is like just the trans portion. |
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| ▲ | pyth0 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just so I understand your objection, they are woke because in the game one of their studios made, the woman in the game wasn't attractive enough for you? | | |
| ▲ | tracker1 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And you totally skip the "self-insert"... But I'm sure you'd cast Lizzo as Helen of Troy. | | |
| ▲ | Dylan16807 28 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Who was the "self" being inserted here? That's a confusing term for a game made by so many people. | | |
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| ▲ | jamiek88 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Anyone else deeply deeply weary in their bones about people doing this? I hate this timeline. We can’t even talk about fucking corporate margins without some chud shoehorning some of this shit in. | | |
| ▲ | ToucanLoucan 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's by design. The outrage merchants post day in and out to signal allegiance to this bizarre cult. People also don't respect how WILDLY influential GamerGate as been. There's good arguments to be made that Trump and his shitty White House would never have come to pass if not for moot re-enabling political discussions on 4chan at the behest of some combo of Epstein and Bannon, explicitly to stoke reactionary rage at anything "gay" in games. Like don't get me wrong it's deeply stupid and perhaps respect is the wrong word, but it's crazy how much those old events are shaping current culture war nonsense. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city an hour ago | parent [-] | | I agree. A lot of people assume rational actors and don't understand "meme magic". | | |
| ▲ | ToucanLoucan an hour ago | parent [-] | | Even calling it memes is overly charitable. It's deliberate stoking of rage at scale to accomplish political ends. |
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| ▲ | darth_avocado 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Then they did not have to give away popular games day one on Game Pass A company that sells consoles complaining about not having enough games after 25 years in business and acquiring most popular game studios is hilarious. They keep cutting game studios, killing games and then set ambitious profit margins. At some point you have to question, do the people in charge understand their own business at all? They just gutted bungee and basically killed Destiny 2, not because the game won’t sell, but because it won’t generate the profits they unrealistically set. |
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| ▲ | belthesar an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Point of clarification: While Bungie had historically been tied to Xbox / Microsoft during the Halo era, Bungie spun out to be its own company in 2007, and then was bought by Sony in 2022. It was Sony, not Microsoft, driving the most recent layoffs at Bungie. | |
| ▲ | ErneX an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Bungie is not a MS studio since 2007. | |
| ▲ | tayo42 30 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | This attitude seemed prevelant at Blizzard too based on a book I read (Play Nice)they wouldn't fund anything that wasn't a billionaire dollar idea. Never ending growth and profits just seem to ruin everything |
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| ▲ | etempleton 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Completely agree. Their problem is that corporate wants more money to funnel back into AI and it is really inconvenient that Xbox provides only a couple billion dollars per month whereas Office and Cloud provide many more billions. What a complete joke. |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It comes across to me as a really honest letter. At least they are talking about spinning out studios instead of shutting them down, I think that plays better than previous announcements. (e.g. make a hit game like Hi-Fi Rush and get shut down!) |
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| ▲ | sharts 29 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Why is any of this surprising? This is just MBA fundamentals. |
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| ▲ | 2OEH8eoCRo0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Compulsively chasing only the highest margins has been toxic for the country as a whole. |
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| ▲ | righthand 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Well this is the new Xbox boss, Aska Sharma trying to course correct her own actions after pushing out Phil Spencer (and team). Phil had a deep understanding of the game world about profit margins and how the Xbox is essentially a stake in keeping Microsoft in the minds of consumers, a place in the home. Aska has a shallow understanding and sees only the financials and wanted to increase profits. Now she is burning it all down to try and “reset” and replace people with LLMs to increase profit margins. I imagine she will be pushed out herself end of year or next Spring (2027) once her naïve plan back fires. |
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| ▲ | draculero an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Just out of curiosity, I checked her Wikipedia page and this caught my eye: > Sharma posted in 2026 that she had recently begun playing video games under the gamertag AMRAHSAHSA to "learn and understand" the games industry Imagine running the Xbox division and only just now picking up a controller. | | |
| ▲ | PaulHoule 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There's this little concept of "cultural sensitivity". Given the size of the King thing it would even be fair to have somebody who had a serious Candy Crush habit. At least they didn't create a fake profile for her the way Elon Musk made one. I think the "glass cliff" is going to claim another victim. |
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| ▲ | tapoxi 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Are you conflating Asha Sharma with Satya Nadella? Asha just joined Xbox, she had no role in any prior decision making. | | |
| ▲ | righthand an hour ago | parent [-] | | Asha came from the AI division of Microsoft, she didn’t pop out of nowhere. She is strongly tied to the Microsoft LLM plays. IMO Phil was very clearly pushed out by “AI will cut costs talk”. No one makes huge investments into acquiring companies and then suddenly retires (after running the division successfully for decades) and none of his underlings were promoted into the role, they all left when he did. | | |
| ▲ | Jare an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think Phil was pushed out by the complete failure of his strategic vision when confronted with reality. He had a vision of growth and prestige, and money would follow. I loved his vision in its grandiose and lofty goals, but he completely failed to capture any of the "how to make it happen". It stays a fantasy. |
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| ▲ | dwroberts 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Don’t know why this is being downvoted because it’s absolutely on the money. She’s a very green exec that is doing the classic “change everything to make it look like I’m doing something” while also not really achieving anything. The rebrand to ‘XBOX’ is a good example of how they’re already out of ideas |
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| ▲ | johnnyanmac 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Different eras of Xbox, and tech as a whole. Spencer's strategy for Xbox was very 2010 coded: rely on the billion/trillion dollar company to undercut the competition and gather market share and leverage. Classic embrace, extend, extinguish. That's why they bought a bunch of arthouse studios who don't immediately make money, invested hard in a subscription service that was wildly unprofitable (a strategy that even TV services couldn't make profitable, mind you), and focus on moving software more than hardware. That strategy shifted dramatically between rising interest rates, a cooling consumer market, business uncertainties, and companies simply wanted to throw any excess fat into the AI rat race. So those art house studios were removed, Gamepass needs to enshittify pre-maturely,production needs to slow from a variety of offerings to the usual safe and sure releases. And of course, the biggest expense needs to be trimmed down on: because no one is stopping them from doing it in the US. The number will still go up, but in different ways. They aren't doing this because they are in the red, they are doing it because they want all the money instead of a lot of it. |