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▲ Sabinus 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A tiny fraction of infants react to infant vaccinations.

But the harm those children experience is a infintesimal fraction of the harm all children would feel if there were no infant vaccinations.

It's a trade off but it's one that must be made. The parents whose child died did the best thing they could do. Until we can screen for the infants that will react, vaccinations are the best choice.

▲ idontwantthis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's a false trade off because without vaccines, the kids that would have died from vaccines are still in danger!

▲ logifail an hour ago | parent [-]

> the kids that would have died from vaccines are still in danger

Except that we knew by May 2020 (possibly even earlier) that the data showed that the young and otherwise healthy were at extraordinarily low risk from Covid.

I still recall a conversation with child#2 after one of his school friends was at home quarantining after testing positive for Covid.

I asked my son if he knew if his friend was feeling better...

"Daddy, he's not poorly, he's just got Covid".

▲ teamonkey an hour ago | parent [-]

Kids spread the virus, whether they’re at risk of dying or not. Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it by reducing the symptoms and the time that they they’re infectious.

The main benefit of vaccines is that they reduce the transmission of disease. This aspect saves more lives than individual protection.

▲ logifail 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Vaccines reduce the chance of them spreading it [..]

"Citation needed"...

Covid vaccination did not reliably or durably block SARS-CoV-2 transmission, especially after Omicron and as immunity waned.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/39971395/

  The overall VE [Vaccine Effectiveness] of the complete primary series against infection with any SARS-CoV-2 variant was 70.7%. VE was lower for Omicron, at 26.1%, than for pre-Omicron strains, at 77.0%. Over time, VE against infection by any variant decreased from 68.9% to 38.9% after 6 months.

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defrost 23 minutes ago | parent [-]

Leaving aside the linked study is looking at vaccine effectiveness WRT infection rather than transmission, ...

Low effectiveness still agrees with the point made above about reducing chances of spread and transmission.

A reduction is still a reduction, even if is not a 100% total and full stop.

	▲	logifail 3 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> A reduction is still a reduction, even if is not a 100% total and full stop The advice I was given from our family doctor was that having had an utterly mild case of (actual) Covid, as I had (two separate times!), during the pandemic, was significantly better in protecting against both future infection - and subsequent transmission - than any protection I could have gained by vaccination. YMMV. I suspect this is down to those who have had mild Covid pre-vaccination and those who have not. Some of us didn't even know we had had Covid until afterwards, others think the vaccine saved them from an untimely death/hospitalisation.

▲ blub an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Covid vaccine was not recommended in Germany and other EU countries for children. The risk of the vaccine was higher than the benefit for them.

It think the guidance was more nuanced for teens, but for kids it was very clear.

The vaxmaxxer vs. antivaxxer - like most culture wars - is a US phenomenon.

▲ logifail 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> It's a trade off but it's one that must be made

At the latest by May 2020, we knew that Covid risk was extremely stratified by age and underlying health conditions.

To be very clear: this does not mean the virus was harmless to everyone else, but treating the population as if risk were evenly distributed was bad analysis, and policy built on that assumption was deeply flawed.

What I would have wanted was a more honest debate about how to protect the old, the frail, and those with major risk factors while also minimising the social, educational, economic, and indirect medical harms caused by restrictions. Yes, that is hard! Policy is supposed to deal with hard problems, not pretend that trade-offs disappear because they are uncomfortable.

Instead, much of the public discussion collapsed into a useless binary: "lock down harder and longer" versus "let it rip". With hindsight, both look far too crude for the actual problem we faced.

▲ zoul 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They did the best for society, not for their child. Yes, vaccines are the best choice, there is no doubt about that. But the society in question must take much better care of those who sacrifice so much for the whole.

	▲	Sabinus 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		No, they did the best for their child. They had no way of knowing their child would react before they gave the vaccine. The harms and risks of illness prevented by vaccination are far greater than the harms and the risks of adverse reaction. Herd immunity arguments can make that calculation more fuzzy but the herd can't tolerate many people opting out and still give group cover. So after a certain amount of people, choosing not to vaccinate is seriously risking illness. Society is built to handle those types of collective action problems. The moral case is still clear IMO.

▲ qsera 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> it's a trade off but it's one that must be made.

It is a trade off that is fair to the individual and to the society IF the society live up to its end of the bargain and had come up with a method of producing the vaccines without the profit maxxing incentive.

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Sabinus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Well regulated markets are extremely productive.

If there is another country on Earth that produces better vaccines via a better system I'm all ears but this sounds like unrealistic DemSoc complaining to me. Expand Medicare widely. Make private insurance extremely optional. The other Western democracies seem to manage this pretty well.

	▲	qsera 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I am not even in US. And what I said is in a global context.

▲ nxc18 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seatbelts and airbags sometimes kill people, too. Sometimes people die in unlucky ways.

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cedws 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though. Seatbelts are a safety measure that applies almost uniformly across age groups.

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estearum 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, they were at low risk. They were actually at far lower risk of harm from the vaccines.

It was and remains statistically correct to vaccinate young people.

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ta8903 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Should we really be using words like "correct" for something like this? It's just a tradeoff, you could say it's a better solution optimizing for fewer dead people, but it is in no way a morally superior solution. You could just as easily argue that not vaccinating at all and letting COVID spread would be a better solution for a nation since COVID overwhelmingly killed old and unhealthy people who are otherwise a drag on the economy.

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cedws 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but the crux of my original point was not about absolute number of lives saved or lost. It was about the trolley problem and mandates.

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estearum 4 hours ago | parent [-]

But the trolley problem doesn't make sense here. The statistically correct thing to do, in nearly all cases for nearly all people, both for themselves and for their community (separately!), was to get vaccinated.

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cedws 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It does though. A government mandate is the same as pulling the lever, it’s trading who lives and who dies. Even if more people survive as result, just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange.

I’m not even arguing the government shouldn’t pull the lever, I just want people to be held accountable for the lives lost as a result, and for the families to be treated with compassion.

	▲	bawolff 2 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		> just like in the original trolley problem, the one who pulls the lever becomes responsible for the exchange. That is a conclusion you can have, but you're speaking like its the official correct conclusion, which isn't really true. The reason the trolly problem is so popular is because there isn't an agreed upon answer and different people come to different conclusions about it. Some people would agree that by pulling the lever you become morally responsible in a way you aren't if you take no action. Other people think you are morally culpable either way.
	▲	estearum 3 hours ago \| parent \| prev \| next [-]
		Ah I see, I missed that way up the thread you were scoping this to vaccine mandates.
	▲	InsideOutSanta 2 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		The one who decides not to pull the lever is just as responsible, and killed a lot more people.

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airstrike 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Healthy individuals spread the disease to others, ultimately killing more people than the infinitesimal odds from getting vaccinated at the height of the pandemic

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bsder 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Healthy children and young adults were at very little risk from COVID though.

People repeat this but there is no validation of this.

Sure, children and young adults mostly weren't at risk of dying. It is not at all clear that there are not bad side effects from getting an active Covid infection. We're still crunching the data.

We're just now beginning the process of correlating virii and bad latent effects many years later. HPV -> Cervical Cancer. Epsetin-Barr -> MS. And, of course the one we have known about for a while: Chicken Pox -> Shingles.

▲ renw0rp 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My cousin died in 2021 at the age of 28 after AstraZeneca vaccine. Quite unfortunate, they starter increasing the age group of people receiving that vaccine literally days after he got it. His parents obviously are obviously still struggling with it and will never really accept it.

▲ InsideOutSanta 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't have to imagine, I lost relatives to people who didn't get vaccinated. A lot of people did. Probably literally billions.

▲ bawolff 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Imagine if you had lost a son or daughter due to this

And imagine if you lost a son or daughter due to not doing this.

You are making a choice either way. If the opposite choice was made there are different consequences. Its not like you can opt out of consequences by not choosing.