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scrumbledober 3 hours ago

it feels like every share of income is at its lowest except for the ultra wealthy.

ux266478 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's not necessarily limited to the ultra wealthy, but outside of a few key areas (as someone mentions, those profiting off of the inflationary spike, those in the real estate market, etc) it is more or less the case, yes.

scottyah 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not, you're just hanging around the wrong people (or spending too much time on social media comment sections).

saghm 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How do you know that you're not the one hanging around the "wrong people" to know better? You could just as easily be surrounding yourself with wealthy people as they could be with non-wealthy.

Without data, it just sounds like "my social circle is more indicative of reality than yours". Maybe it is! But maybe not, so it's not particularly convincing

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not the only one with access to data though, if you're wanting to hold to your beliefs unless someone does the legwork for you and attempts to force it on you, I think your bias will overcome. Here is a source to begin anyway.

The middle class (especially upper middle) saw their share of income drop, but the bottom 50% increased.

https://equitablegrowth.org/u-s-income-data-for-2024-shows-t...

dfxm12 an hour ago | parent [-]

Talk about missing the forest for the trees. The bottom 50% saw a 0.2% increase (to just 21%) over 5 years. OK, this is technically more, but it is a paltry increase of a tiny base spread out across so many people. It is reasonably seemingly imperceivable to any individual in the group. The top 10%'s increase, on the other hand, was greater than this. A greater percentage increase on a slice of pie that was almost twice as big. In the larger context, this just shows greater inequality.

If people are saying they feel the squeeze, even in social media comments, they are probably being honest.

MintPaw 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Data is the answer, it's just that so few people are willing to look at unbiased data. Although the start is asking a more measurable question.

kudokatz 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

some maybe-biased data for a steel man in [1]:

"The Census Bureau measure overstates current income inequality between the highest and lowest 20% of earners by more than 300% and claims that income inequality has risen by 21% since 1967, when in fact it has fallen by 3% ... In 2017, among working-age households, the bottom 20% earned only $6,941 on average, and only 36% were employed. But after transfer payments and taxes, those households had an average income of $48,806. The average working-age household in the second quintile earned $31,811 and 85% of them were employed. But after transfers and taxes, they had income of $50,492, a mere 3.5% more than the bottom quintile."

[1] https://www.wsj.com/opinion/income-equality-not-inequality-i...

roughly 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Data is also a really, really potent rhetorical tool, because it is definitionally never complete (a map that fully captures a territory is the territory), and by those omissions, the data can be made to say anything at all in a way that looks unbiased.

saghm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What's the question I should be asking, and what data answers it? I'm genuinely asking

MintPaw an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not you particularly, I meant the original: "it feels like every share of income is at its lowest except for the ultra wealthy."

It's ambiguous in several way, no time scale, "ultra wealthy" isn't defined, and "income" somewhat ambiguous.

logicchains 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Median household income is the stat usually used to measure income and it's still increasing.

roughly 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If my income goes up by 1% and my expenses go up by 2%, has my financial situation improved?

contagiousflow 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Source for this statistically?

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

https://equitablegrowth.org/u-s-income-data-for-2024-shows-t...

Bottom 50% is increasing income with the top 10%, it's the middle class that's declining in the last 5 years. This was a quick google search, so I'll ask you to provide a source that's contrary else your comment was purely rhetorical and made in bad faith.

contagiousflow an hour ago | parent [-]

Well I would implore you to read your own source. And maybe start hanging around groups that read more

shimman 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There is but you have to ignore the lived reality that Americans are struggling to afford healthcare, housing, utilities, education, and food costs all while the ultra wealthy are demanding the public invests trillions into vaporware.

gegtik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

maybe the disconnect here is the claim was about 'income' which in isolation of living conditions, perhaps continues to rise and thus by the most narrow and useless definition, the OP is incorrect

shimman 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Things barely increasing after nearly 40+ years of being completely flat isn't the win that poster thinks it is, maybe if you're doped up on neoliberalism it sounds nice but everything else people need to survive are also increasing in costs massively.

3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
jagged-chisel 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The annoying/sad/infuriating thing is the ultra wealthy don’t have “income.” Technically, according to IRS rules, much of what they experience (housing, food, etc) should be classified as income. But their lawyers and accountants help them keep that looking quite low.

smt88 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This report is only about wages, so even if the ultra-wealthy reported their real sources of income, they wouldn’t shut up as “labor” the way this defines it.

lotsofpulp 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Capital gains not being considered earned income is simply sensible use of terminology to categorize different ways of amassing purchasing power. For example, in order to carry out the linked analysis.

It has nothing to do with the IRS or taxes.

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Income goes straight to a person, capital gains is a little return from other people generating income. Basically a MLM lol.

micromacrofoot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

even with this scam the top 1% of earners still have more annual income than ~75% of the population

Schiendelman 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I used to think this - but when I talked to a tax lawyer friend and we walked through the steps they take, usually they're just deferring taxation that does end up getting paid by an entity eventually.

ck_one 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Capital gains tax is clearly lower than income tax. So why did you change your mind?

nickff 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Not the commenter you replied to, but one thing to note is that capital gains tax (at least in the context of investments in corporate equities) is applied after corporate taxes. Profits and reinvested earnings are taxed as profits, and they're two of the key components to valuing an equity.

As such, when comparing income tax and capital gains, you should add the impact of corporate taxes. Incidentally, corporate taxes are why many small business owners pay themselves wage income, rather than doing stock buybacks or dividends.

topgrain2 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Incidentally, corporate taxes are why many small business owners pay themselves wage income, rather than doing stock buybacks or dividends.

You've been sold some BS. Usually this is because you're required to take a "reasonable" wage for your role in a company. Otherwise I guarantee you every independent contractor out there (among others) would be operating in a way that made 100% of their income business profit, rather than wages, as it has enormous tax advantages. Approximately everybody tries to find out the least they can take as wage income without pissing off the IRS, and sets their "wage" to whatever that is.

nickff an hour ago | parent [-]

Many locales have laws that do not allow remuneration above the 'reasonable wage', to prevent tax circumvention by having employers spread wage payments across multiple family members of employees, but I am not familiar with any jurisdiction with a minimum reasonable wage law or regulation. Could you please link some source for the claim that business owners are required to accept a 'reasonable wage'?

topgrain2 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employe...

tonyedgecombe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've often wondered why we don't abolish corporation tax and instead tax capital gains and dividends like normal income.

daedrdev 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because capital gains taxes really discourage selling which gums up the economy

nickff 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This would be my personal preference, as I believe that voters often overlook the impact of corporate taxes, and there are just too many (different) taxes.

panzagl 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So if I buy and sell Pokeman cards I shouldn't have to pay any tax because WotC pays corporate taxes?

nickff 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I am not saying that one party paying taxes means that no counter-party should. I am just saying that the impact of different structures should be accounted for.

saghm 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If the income was earned through dividends, maybe this would be a reasonable argument. Most of the time stock just gets bought and sold by investors rather than the company itself though, so it's not clear why corporate tax would have anything to do with this.

Sure, the stock price should somehow be tied to the actual value of the company, but for a while now it's been mostly indistinguishable from a Ponzi scheme other than a few companies that do sometimes decide to buy back some stock, which makes it slightly less sketchy but if the value is from the company buying it back, it's a lot closer to debt or a bond, which is not at all how anyone treats it.

nickff 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I agree that in a bull market, many corporations are not purchased and sold at book value. That said, we are on the largest bull-run in history, so we shouldn’t treat this as the norm, and base all our long-term decisions on the current situation.

saghm 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

So if I'm understanding correctly, your argument is that it doesn't make sense to make people who make more money pay the same rate of taxes as regular people do because we should ignore the fact that they've been doing it for longer than ever before?

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they donate the wealth to their own foundation to continue to hold close and control, it doesn't get taxed. If they borrow against the wealth at low interest rates until they die and the basis is stepped up ("buy, borrow, die"), it doesn't get taxed. Certainly, deferment is a component, but there are obvious examples of the very wealthy operating in a manner to avoid taxes entirely when they're able to (realizing the benefit of the wealth without having to realize a taxable event). Trust stacking is a recent fad as well, although I don't have enough data to say whether it is a material concern from a tax revenue perspective.

Silicon Valley Is Obsessed with 'Trust Stacking,' and the IRS Doesn't Like It - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48727963 - June 2026

Schiendelman 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The cases you're talking about are all delaying taxation, not eliminating it. Eventually someone has to draw that wealth - the foundation has to spend for public benefit to be eligible for 501(c)3 status, for instance.

toomuchtodo 3 hours ago | parent [-]

How Elon Musk's secretive foundation hands out his billions - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/23/how-elon-... - January 23rd, 2019

"Spending for the public benefit" has a lot of latitude.

saghm 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I also don't think they addressed how borrowing against the wealth doesn't require any immediate taxes (and is often low interest, given how being a billionare means you get more favorable terms). There's nothing stopping someone in that position from just deferring taxes on the money they currently have, borrowing against it, and then investing that to turn into more money with taxes deferred even further so that they can use the proceeds to pay the previous deferred taxes and keep the difference.

Schiendelman 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That requires their investments to keep going up in value. That doesn't last forever, the assets that people borrow against eventually need to be sold to pay back that loan. When they sell to make payments, those are taxable events.

saghm 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

If investments didn't grow at a faster rate than interest, why would anyone ever invest money at all instead of putting into a savings account? I don't know why it''s hard to imagine that a large loan with a relatively low interest rate might be able to be invested for more than enough profits to pay off the taxes and the loan with some to spare

jagged-chisel an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

How does it work if the loan defaults and those assets were used as collateral?

Schiendelman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If any significant part of that article is true, I see self dealing that would already be against IRS code. It's just a matter of enforcement. We often already have the laws to solve the problems we identify.

Psillisp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Was your ‘friend’ Jeffery Epstein?

smt88 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s not. There are plenty of non-wealthy people who make money from things other than their labor.

Small-time landlords are an example, as would be anyone who owns a small business and draws cash from profits rather than taking a salary.

tancop 7 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

im going to be controversial and say no one should have anything other than labor as their main income until they retire.

anything you can do thats useful to society counts as labor (but not vice versa, you can work as a robber or corporate lobbyist). from line cooks to wall street ceos to open source volunteers and stay at home moms who dont get paid but still work. landlords and executives count because management is labor too.

if your income comes from a trust fund or owning properties that you dont manage thats a passive reward for doing nothing. you are not productive. you are a parasite living on the back of everyone else and expecting indefinite rewards for a fixed amount of work you or your parents did years ago.

contagiousflow 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> non-wealthy

> landlord

If you think these two things are compatible you need to talk to more people outside of your bubble.

artisinal 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not American here. I know a couple of people who took out a second mortgage to buy a small appartement to rent out when mortgages rates were at 1%. They probably have €300k in equity in both the primary and secondary home. And around €600 in income from the rental. I do not consider that wealthy.

torginus 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I would describe that as having invested in an appreciating asset (like stocks), and their main income comes from the gains of the property prices as they go up in value. Moreover, they leveraged themselves via loans to acquire income even faster.

These gains might be realized at any point if they're willing to pay taxes for them.

Having lots of money but choosing not to spend it doesn't make you any less wealthy.

an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
tonyedgecombe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Most landlords are leveraged up to the hilt. They may look wealthy from the outside but a close look at the figures says otherwise.

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The original comment said "ultra wealthy".

bigstrat2003 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't have to be especially wealthy to own a second house and rent it out. That isn't poor, certainly, but I wouldn't call it wealthy either.

opinion-is-bad 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

b40d-48b2-979e 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

    being born into money is not a requirement to own several houses before 30.
Do tell.
bonesss 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So “landlord” and “commercial landlord living entirely off of passive income” are worlds apart.

Buying a fixer-upper outside of town with high-school and early 20s grinding, renting out 3+ rooms to cover the mortgage for painful years, working 80 hour weeks, refinancing against that first house into another under-maintained property where you live in half while upgrading the other, ending up with a rental duplex and drastically reduced living cost, is viable by 30. Maximizing youth savings, first house programs, and primary residence rules create less punitive economics.

It sucks and will let one learn why landlord is a pain in the ass job, and relies on sweat equity and modest lifestyle, wanting to commit to real estate, and non-ideal properties. Trade school or skipping college for early income and low debt make the numbers crunch easier.

Investing consistently into the market in your 20s probably out performs it by 65, and a young bankers lifestyle is a joy of its own, but: owning property young is achievable for electricians, security guards, and janitors.

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Live in a poor place. There are plenty of cheap houses, but you do have to leave expensive areas (shocking, I know).

cool_dude85 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So, are the landlords wealthy or not wealthy? I don't get it.

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not at all. The real estate share of income is probably at its highest among a lot of people who belong to the non-labouring class, but are far from ultra wealthy. But it's nice to have a scapegoat, isn't it?

idiotsecant 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If you belong to the 'non-laboring class' you are by definition the ultra wealthy. It's wild how much people are willing to slide goalposts to make themselves feel better.

scottyah 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It hurts the definition of the words when you use ultra wealthy to refer to the top 50%...

idiotsecant an hour ago | parent [-]

You think 50% of people don't labor?

scottyah an hour ago | parent [-]

While about 50% to 60% of the adult U.S. population are active W-2 wage earners at any given time, the percentage that relies on labor exclusively (meaning they have zero capital income or assets to fall back on) sits right around 40% to 50% of working households.

carlosjobim 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ultra wealthy literally means "beyond wealthy". A double digit percentage of the population, maybe 30-50% belong to the non-laboring class.

If I was talking about "ultra obese" people, you wouldn't assume I was talking about everybody who has a couple of extra pounds?