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kristopolous 4 hours ago

Next time someone tells you this is the party of free market and small government, I guess you just laugh now?

GolfPopper 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've been laughing when people tell me that for my entire adult life. It remains a pretty funny bit of dark humor, though.

z3c0 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Growing up rural, the grift has been obvious my whole ĺife

jandrewrogers 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The authority under which this was done has been operative and actively used for several decades. It isn't a partisan issue, it is a policy of American governance. Anyone that has worked on frontier "dual use" technologies will be familiar with the legal regime.

The only thing that changed is people are writing articles about it in the news media.

digitaltrees 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But it was applied using principles of the rule of law with clear regulatory frameworks. This is not that

jandrewrogers an hour ago | parent [-]

I’ve dealt with these regulations across several administrations. Nothing about this is novel, it is just receiving more attention than usual. Anyone could have started caring about this decades ago. You are making an argument from unfamiliarity with the regulations as practiced.

If it takes Trump to force people to educate themselves on how the US government actually works then I guess that is at least one good thing to come out of this.

sagarm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Jumping in to reflexively defend the admin again, I see.

Is there any policy from this admin you don't support?

jandrewrogers 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I am making an observation of fact. My feeds are full of ignorant hot takes that clearly demonstrate people have no clue about current law or how the government actually works. Your response is a perfect demonstration of this. This is neither unique to the current administration nor supporters of a particular party.

I don’t support the admin but if you are unwilling to engage with reality then that is on you.

davesque an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also known as, the tu quoque fallacy. Just because politicians in both parties have been doing this for decades doesn't mean that this administration is not especially hypocritical for doing it after whinging so much about free speech and free markets.

typeofhuman 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The only correct reply.

digitaltrees 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If by correct you mean, inconsistent with the American tradition of the rule of law and commitment to equal protection of the law, and the emergence of an authoritarian kleptocracy that picks winners and losers. Then yes. Correct.

dmix 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Which has been obvious trend the last few decades and is now being done openly and shamelessly like a tinpot dicator. Largely through a new populist protectionism ideology that is popular on social media. Which makes it much more public and well documented.

Usually companies do this stuff quietly with lots of small new rules via Congress creating barriers to entry or through national security angles like the Chips act which funneled money and tax breaks to huge weathy companies, or Boeing, or the car industry, etc.

Anthropic and OpenAI went hard in the paint pushing for AI safety and it backfired into hurting their companies rather than protecting their interests.

digitaltrees an hour ago | parent [-]

Stop with the false equivalence.

y1n0 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Well, there are the political ideals expressed or embraced by the populace, and then there are politicians. AFAICT political parties at the national level and state level in the US is pure theater.

rikfckfj284 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the question isn’t about size, it’s about who the government works for. Small government can promote private interests by not entering certain societal spaces, leaving them for profit making — education, healthcare, housing etc. But large government can also promote private interests, by directing tax dollars to corporations (and still not entering certain societal spaces).

It’s not about size, it’s about where it chooses to operate

Gagarin1917 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Now?

ch4s3 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They haven’t claimed to be the free market party since Obama was in office. Trump very much ran an anti free market campaign the first time.

digitaltrees 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes they have.

ch4s3 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really. They’re all lousy pro tariffs, anti immigration, pro tech regulations, and so on. Paul Ryan is gone.

digitaltrees an hour ago | parent [-]

They still spout off about free markets all the time with no sense of irony.

CamperBob2 an hour ago | parent [-]

They'll literally tell you it's not raining while you're standing there getting soaked. [1] Anything the Republicans say is meaningless.

1: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/thomas-jefferson-street/artic...

seemaze 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Having an a collective economy governed by the “free market” is like having a pile of stones governed by gravity. There exists a primary directive force, but if you want to construct a cathedral or a bomb shelter, you need to impose some constraints, lest you revert to the angle of repose.

m4nu3l 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This is a very bad analogy. Markets behave like an imperfect optimisation algorithm, and you can prove that, under some conditions which are most often met, they give people what they want. In fact, you can almost always expect governments to be less effective and less rational than markets in allocating resources to satisfy the desires of people, even when democratic. You can prove it either by using the same logic that tells you when markets fail (externalities, information asymmetry), or empirically by looking at what was basically the most perfect A/B test we had on society over the 20th century. Although it was a comparison between mixed economies and fully centralised ones, there is no reason to expect the optimum mix of centralisation/distribution to be closer to the worst-performing one (the fully centralised one).

plaguuuuuu 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can't prove your free-market theory because it's not falsifiable.

This is why arguments about this go in circles. You either argue from a pure theoretic POV back and forth, or you go off data - at which point, bringing up every failure of free markets (like, obviously, US healthcare) is dismissed as "not really a free market"

Even the theoreticians on the free-market side are far less solid than.. all the other sides (behavioural economics, information asymmetry.. even Marx) but I regard it as deeply unpragmatic when there's so much data out there indicating what actually happens in the real world when you go one way or the other.

orangecat an hour ago | parent | next [-]

at which point, bringing up every failure of free markets (like, obviously, US healthcare) is dismissed as "not really a free market"

I mean, it's not. In a free market you'd have a choice of insurance providers rather than having to take whatever plan your employer offers, and you'd have some idea of what the hospital is going to charge you beforehand rather than receiving random bills for weeks.

m4nu3l an hour ago | parent [-]

Just to be clear, my definition of free-market is just that there is no centralised authority that can use force to set prices/quantities/quality/type of services offered. Of course, the fact that the employer has to offer health insurance in some cases is part of it not being a free market. But there are more fundamental things that make the US healthcare very far from being a free market. The first one is that the supply of doctors is capped in quantity, not just in quality.

m4nu3l 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> You can't prove your free-market theory because it's not falsifiable.

You can prove the logic part starting from the assumptions. It's also falsifiable. I just mentioned it was literally the most controlled test on human society you could make. We tested by splitting societies at the level of the entire planet, states and cities.

US healthcare is mostly not a free market; by free market, at minimum, I mean that the quantities and prices (ideally even the quality) are not set. The US healthcare system has a fixed number of practitioners who can get a license every year. This is as far as a market can be from being free (together with the case of having price controls). In fact, free market theory predicts that when you restrict quantity, you get higher prices for the same quality. It literally predicts the US situation.

It's funny you mention Marx, given I regard most of his claims as either unfalsifiable or easily proven false.

gverrilla an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> A/B test we had on society over the 20th century.

Well, by your own logic, there's a new a/b test running right now. Its results aren't exactly going your way.

m4nu3l an hour ago | parent [-]

Not sure what you are referring to. Can you elaborate?

digitaltrees 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes. But that was the “big government democrat” argument that republicans said was evil and un American.

sharts an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Free for me, not for thee

digitaltrees 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you laugh you’re a communist and against Christianity and part of a satanic cabal.

paytonjjones 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's always been a relative, rather than absolute statement.

Genuine question: if Democrats take power, do you expect them to be more interventionist or less interventionist with respect to AI? Bernie's jockeying leads me to suspect "more", but I could very well be wrong.

(FWIW I personally think modern AI falls in the small realm of potentially dangerous technologies that merit careful, ideally bipartisan, government oversight)

brokencode 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think they’d try to get something through Congress to regulate the industry in a rules-based way.

The current admin flies by the seat of their pants and at least creates the perception of political decision making.

drdaeman 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

What rules, though?

Bernie and AOC (which aren't DNC mainstream, but prominent) had just pushed for a moratorium on "AI data centers" with a definition that includes "that are used for the development or operation of AI models at scale" (trivially sidesteppable by "we build this GPU farm to sell to whoever bids for compute" - which is actually true), plus a bunch of fancy extras bundled in like "The government must review and approve AI products before they are released to ensure that AI products are safe and effective.", while lacking actual definition of "AI" (given that we had "AI" systems since '50s).

Here's the full text: https://www.sanders.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/AI-Data-Ce...

Yeah, the bill has a cause - it recognizes some pain points. But then it haphazardly tries to address symptoms instead of underlying issues (environmental regulations, utility pricing, land use, job security), while pushing vaguely defined regulations that allow arbitrary application. As if misdirected measures and poorly defined laws aren't already a giant issue.

tick_tock_tick an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think they’d try to get something through Congress to regulate the industry in a rules-based way.

Is that a joke? We're back in a spat with Iran because Obama refused to engage with Congress, as required by our constitution, to enter the USA in any binding deal.

Any AI actions from the next admin is going to be executive yolos.

ThunderSizzle 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Obamacare, but for AI, where every American has to now pay a penalty to not use AI or something like that?

That was the last major thing the Democrats did, and healthcare has gotten substantially worse...but at least it's well regulated now.

FireBeyond 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> the perception of political decision making

The what? More like "the whims of an eighty year old in cognitive decline and those wishing to curry or keep his favor" - quite an expansive definition of "political decision making".

Alupis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> More like "the whims of an eighty year old in cognitive decline..."

The previous administration was totally not exactly what's described here...

preg_match 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It wasn’t. Biden largely didn’t do much. The trump administration does illegal things that get struck down in courts on a daily basis. We’re all very desensitized to it.

But yes, Biden was old and cognitively not well. But his “whims” didn’t exist much, and they were always fairly reasonable. Trump is the most unreasonable president, most likely in US history. I would even categorize Andrew Jackson as more restrained.

Alupis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The courts struck down many Biden policies as well. People just give those a pass because "SCOTUS is rigged" or something...

amanaplanacanal an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The only big one I remember is the college loan forgiveness thing.

Alupis an hour ago | parent [-]

> https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-supreme-court-dealt-bide...

That would be your politics coloring your memory.

the_gastropod 11 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah, so those weren’t mostly 6-3 decisions along partisan lines?

dualvariable 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Don't forget the blatant grift and corruption.

4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
4lx87 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We don’t have to guess. Democrats had a pragmatic policy under Biden — which was rescinded by Trump when he took office.

https://bidenwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefing-room/statement...

andsoitis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Democrats had a pragmatic policy under Biden

How well does it stand up to Mythos?

JPKab 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Marc Andreesen has first-hand knowledge that absolutely refutes what you are saying.

The Democratic party is more anti-ai than the Republican party and unfortunately both of them are increasingly responding to astroturfed populism.

Do you think Bernie Sanders in AOC are pro-ai? Are you kidding me? Have you seen what they say and the legislation they propose?

preg_match 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but they’re proposing legislation. Trump is legislating from the White House, through a series of bribes and corrupt conduct.

Not even on the same playing field. They just can’t be compared, they’re incomparable.

nutjob2 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also free speech/the first amendment and various other rights people are supposed to have but don't in practice.

DANmode 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Fourth Amendment, through corporate data purchase or exfiltration.

3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
az226 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not just that, Biden administration started with some AI regulation that the Trump administration nixed, and then outright banning models. Lunacy.

4 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
JPKab 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you think that anthropic wasn't pushing aggressive regulatory capture legislation in the Biden administration, why do you think they hired a bunch of people from it?

ribosometronome 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What Anthropic was pushing for under Biden has very little to do with the values Republicans have been espousing (and failing to live up to) for decades. That's kind of the point op was making. Republicans run on small government but do not deliver it. Democrats do not run on small government. Democrat Presidents campaign on and push for things like the ACA, they don't have fun quips like, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.”

A clear regulatory framework to operate within allows businesses to operate within it rather than get surprised by the King's whims upending their business on every few Fridays. If you expect regulation will eventually happen, pushing for it to happen on terms you're able to comply with rather than as haphazard surprises is pretty sensible.

Alupis 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's very fashionable to hate on the current administration, despite what the previous administration was doing. That's reality and I'll be punished to hell for saying so.

SpicyLemonZest 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If you don't want the current administration to be blindly hated, perhaps you should ask the president to stop publishing daily statements about how much he hates various people. You reap what you sow.

Alupis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It'll never stop amusing me how blind we are to politicians that are "on our side".

SpicyLemonZest 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Again, you're seeing this as some kind of clever invariant of politics, but it's not. People are blind to politicians on their side because Donald Trump has spent the past 10 years working hard to make sure that everyone in politics is constantly enraged at the other side. You're being "punished to hell", in your words, because you're blaming Trump's passionate embrace of hatred-based politics on his opponents.

Alupis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> you're seeing this as some kind of clever invariant of politics, but it's not. People are blind to politicians on their side because Donald Trump

Yes, sure, it is I who is blind...

paulddraper 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Then cry as you look for the free market/small government leaders.

jknoepfler 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ever since I've been conscious (the 80s), it's been the party of fear, violence and greed. They've consistently nominated actual clowns for positions of power. B-movie actor Ronald Reagan... Dan Quayle... Sarah Palin... the current, truly stunning iteration of absolute moral and intellectual bankruptcy TWICE after he killed hundreds of thousands of people due to COVID/vaccine skepticism and staged a violent attack on the capitol after losing a democratic election.

Free market? Small government? Big police state, trillions in defense contractor grift, unsustainable tax breaks to the wealthiest leading to massive spending deficits... all while doing everything to erode access to education, healthcare and basic services.

It is just utterly baffling to me. I'm... well along the spectrum... so people not responding correctly to obvious information is just something I've gotten used to but just... wow.

edit: typo

danans 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It is just utterly baffling to me. I'm... well along the spectrum... so people not responding correctly to obvious information is just something I've gotten used to but just... wow.

People get quite a kick out of seeing people they don't like get hurt. They can stay entertained by that for a long time until it bites them.

Only now is it finally biting with the collapse of the rural medical clinics, the war induced spike in the price of gasoline, etc.

That's probably playing a big part in the seeming shift in the electorate in every election.

MaxPock 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Republicans trust Americans with guns and not an LLM. That should tell you something.

GolfPopper 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

It tells me that the people who buy Republican politicians make money from selling Americans guns, and somebody with influence thinks they can make money by restricting LLM release.

bilsbie 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which party is?

iAMkenough 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The one currently running the show.

ryanar 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

its all trump, he is a megalomaniac, not affiliated with any party but his own

afavour 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They have affiliated themselves to him. Watch, within a month of Democrats being back in power they’ll be harping small government, denigrating the national debt they ballooned themselves. There’s no reason to help them attempt to disavow it.

Klathmon 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But it's not just him, it's the entire party aggressively supporting him and everything he does.

andsoitis 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the entire party aggressively supporting him and everything he does.

That's untrue.

If you do some homework you will see Republican politicians and the Supreme Court disagreeing on a number of issues. Amongst Republican voters, his approval rating has been sliding and is now below 80% in most polls.

VK-pro 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Wow a whole 20% of dissent. Impressive.

andsoitis an hour ago | parent [-]

You have to remember that very very few voters agree/support everything their party does. If that wasn't the case, then not a single American voter is morally pure.

atlgator 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They passed one major piece of legislation since he took office and it was loaded with pork to get everyone onboard. I wouldn't call that aggressive. The Right is very fractured right now.

wk_end 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At least in part that's because they've stopped legislating. The executive now basically just does whatever it wants.

jLaForest 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The right is fractured is several ways but there is one unifying value: unquestioning support for Trump

atlgator 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I can't tell if you're disingenuous or just ignorant. The Trump admin has been completely coopted by the pro-Israel lobby and Big Tech. He betrayed his entire base. He's ruling by executive fiat (EOs). Anyone that speaks out publicly for the original platform gets a primary challenger funded by Miriam Adelson or threats. See Thomas Massie, MTG, Lauren Boebert, etc. Are you paying attention at all? The Boomers watching Fox News propaganda in their nursing homes all day are not a reflection of party unity.

preg_match 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The Fox News boomers were pawns, but everyone knew that. Trump is a “money talks” kind of guy, that’s why people voted for him.

Yes that was shortsighted but it’s worked out well for trump. He can basically just… do whatever. Nobody needs to legislate, he’s essentially congress at this point.

jknoepfler 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's fractured as a consequence of its own actions, which all of its constituent members bear direct responsibility for.

Epstein cover up? Iran? COVID denialism? Complete disregard for rule of law? Accepting massive, direct bribes? Trying to control broadcast media?

That's all on the Republican party as a collective, who did absolutely nothing to resist it and everything to put him in power TWICE. TWICE.

ryanmcbride 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it's actually the entire party that's propping him up. If it was just trump he would be living on the street.

gkoberger 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Trump has an 87% approval rating amongst Republicans as of the last poll I can find.

While Trump is a megalomanic and does whatever he wants, he has the mandate of the Republican party, whose elected officials could choose at any moment to end this by withdrawing support.

Don't let them off the hook.

andsoitis 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> Trump has an 87% approval rating amongst Republicans as of the last poll I can find.

It's lower than that. Most polls show below 80%.

> Don't let them off the hook.

That's not the way.

keyle 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It seems people can flip that coin whenever it suits them.

servercobra 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And yet the rest of the party falls in behind him.

malcolmgreaves 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The entire Republican party in all branches of government is supporting Trump. His politics and the Republican party politics are one and the same. The last election the party did not have a platform because, quite literally, they said that whatever Trump says _is_ their platform.

jknoepfler 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He's a Republican backed by the Republican establishment funded by Republican donors and massively influential in Republican primaries. Republicans voted him into power twice. Republicans pushed his voter fraud narrative. Republicans embraced his vaccine skepticism and killed countless Americans. Republicans voted for his ICE policies that murdered two citizens of my home state.

Republicans caused this disaster and are all, each and every, individually morally responsible for putting Trump in power.

Republican voters, Republican politicians, Republican donors and the Republican political machine.

They picked the losing side of history and they can sink with it.

trimethylpurine 3 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

defrost 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> a much greater injury and death rate attributable to vaccines than COVID.

Explain Australia then, specifically the absence of nation wide injury and death following the short period in which 98% of a population ~ 24 million or so, got two to three rounds of vaccines with a new definition.

Fantastic case study for such widespread ill effects to clearly and unambiguously show up - the country is isolated and has had world class epidemiology researchers plugged into integrated national health records for 50+ years.

trimethylpurine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

defrost 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Data first.

What was that injury rate in Australia, how many of the > 20 million vaccine recipients died or were injured by vaccines.

Where are these deaths and injuries greater in magnitude than COVID deaths and injuries?

I cannot answer for you or your governments odd notions. Feel free to concentrate on actually making and landing a solid point with peer commenter azan.

preg_match 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Right but at the end of the day how many people died from the Covid vaccine?

We all need a healthy dose of reality. Yes the vaccine rollout was not perfect. But 1 million Americans died from Covid. And that’s that, if we can’t even agree on reality then there’s no point in arguing.

richbell 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What I'm reading is that you agree Trump represents the republican party. Great, the gp's comment has been settled.

trimethylpurine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Okay. I can't say I care much who he represents. I'm more concerned with the fact that half the country is okay with pardoning a war criminal who committed a biological weapons attack on literally every country in the world, including the US.

If I have to pick between a murderer and literally killing everyone on earth I'll pick the murderer because I'm not a psychopath.

Can you blame me?

azan_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Covid vaccines are very safe and saved lots of lives. That’s what actual research shows, not your delusions. I’m biochemistry phd so yeah, step up.

trimethylpurine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Math please? Specifically citing the research that the FDA cited from the NEJoM. Please include the published injury rate, and the published efficacy.

If you can't make a point with the math, then don't bother replying. My invitation is to discuss with scientists, to be clear. CNN is not qualified as a scientific body, despite claiming to be. I'm aware that most of the US believes that CNN is the arbiter of science. I'm referring specifically to a scientific paper published by the manufacturer of the drug you are pedaling.

And that's my point. You can't. You're consuming media and calling it science. You're lying to yourself.

Please prove me wrong.

Look at the injury rate in the NEJoM study submitted by Pfizer, and look at the rate of disease symptoms (later decreased but we'll ignore that for the sake of driving my point home), and tell me what the rest of us scientists missed. Or at least admit that you didn't really notice that it killed and injured more people in Pfizer's own study than you had realized (for the sake of honest scientists if you care to call yourself one).

I'll even overlook the fact that all the "peer reviewers" were Pfizer employees who couldn't bring themselves to the level of shame so as to falsify the results. Instead they themselves published blatantly that the drug is more destructive than the disease it purports to treat. Thankfully we have some moral fiber in the field.

azan_ 2 hours ago | parent [-]

But you did not make any point, you keep using buzzword without referencing any data. You did not even link exact study you are talking about (there are lots of nejm covid studies…). You did not reference a single number. So please, if you want math actually make your point without bullshit about me consuming media etc.

trimethylpurine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Seriously? There is only one study that the FDA cited to claim that it was safe and effective submitted by Pfizer. But let me help then. Let's ignore the fact that the head of the FDA was fired and replaced because he refused to say so. Let's just look at the research directly.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577

Love to hear your input here. Check the math carefully.

> "Covid vaccines are very safe and saved lots of lives."

I'm convinced you didn't get this idea from honestly reading research.

azan_ 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, that study shows safety of the vaccine, so what’s your point? Could you actually just say what’s your point? I can’t tell you why you are wrong if you don’t tell me what’s your problem.

MaxHoppersGhost 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

preg_match 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Some things are just true. Rape bad, murder bad, war bad. I have never understood this reasoning.

If things are bad are we just supposed to… pretend… they’re not? And that… would help things? Like how? What’s even the mechanism for that?

jmyeet 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Considering there's no such thing as a "free market" I've been laughing for a real long time. Markets require regulation and enforcement to function.

The US government was created to protect the interests of rich, white, male slave owners. And if you look at Louisiana State Penintentiary (often called "Angola"), which is essentialy a Southern plantation with forced labor, you realize not as much has changed as you might otherwise think.

paulddraper 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The it did a pretty shit job of it. Within 100 years it was killing hundreds of thousands to fight against that purpose.

jmyeet 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lincoln disagrees [1]:

> My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.

While chattel slavery ended when the 13th Amendment was ratified in 1865, slavery continued through debt bondage and convict leasing up until 1941 where FDR suddenly decided to aggressively prosecute the practice for fear of the Japanese using it for propaganda value. I'm referring to Circular 3591 [2]. And while that heavily curtailed abuse (eg by locking people up essentially indefinitely for "vagrancy" or imaged debts), forced prison labor continues to this day, including private companies profiting from prison labor.

Also, while the Confederacy lost the Civil War, the South arguably won. Reconstruction saw severe curtailment of newly-established civil rights for former enslaved people. And after Reconstruction came Jim Crow until the 1960s.

[1]: https://www.loc.gov/collections/abraham-lincoln-papers/artic...

[2]: https://www.endslaverynow.org/blog/articles/state-imposed-fo...

mullingitover 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The point of slavery was money, and the point of money was power. By the time of the civil war the real power for the ruling class was coming from industrialization.