| ▲ | ungreased0675 3 hours ago |
| Good hiring almost certainly has to be a significant competitive advantage. It makes me wonder why so many otherwise successful companies let HR bungle the hiring process. |
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| ▲ | maccard 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I’ve worked with places that have had HR bungle the hiring and places that haven’t. The only difference is whether it’s HR or Engineering bungling the hiring. Writing a job description that actually matches what you want is hard work. Sifting through 300 applicants that don’t meet the requirements or lie on the application form is hard work. Doing 10 30 minute intro calls is hard work. Desigining “standard” questions for comparison is hard work. Wrangling 2 rounds of interviews per candidate, dealing with people who are too busy with work for hiring is hard work. Chasing people for interview feedback that isn’t just “yeah seems fine” is hard work. And then getting the group to stop saying “we want to speak to more people” is harder than any of the previous steps. I’ve interviewed hundreds of people over the last few years as a peer, hiring manager, and as a “bar raiser”, and it’s just a lot of work no matter who does it… |
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| ▲ | gopher_space 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > And then getting the group to stop saying “we want to speak to more people” is harder than any of the previous steps. FOMO will keep them doing this in perpetuity until you find a way to make them feel the pain. | | |
| ▲ | maccard an hour ago | parent [-] | | IME the only way to make them feel the pain is have them responsible. Panel gets yes/no and hiring manager makes final decision. It’s not a consensus. |
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| ▲ | stackskipton 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because like a lot of things, metric of "What does recruiting cost us?" is very easy number to quantify so companies will attempt to reduce it. "What does bad recruiting cost us?" is very hard number to quantify because it's just sand that gets thrown into so many gears, but cost of that sand is across a ton of departments and so measuring for it is very difficult. |
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| ▲ | dasil003 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Huh? Hiring being broken has nothing to do with cost, it's a filtering problem. Even when there's no HR or bean counter in sight it's still hard. There's fundamentally limited signal you can extract from interviews, so there's very loose correlation to on-the-job performance. Saying it's a cost-cutting problem would just encourage more and longer interviews, which could actually work against you because high performers tend to have more options and will not jump through infinite hoops. | | |
| ▲ | maccard 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > High performers tend to have more options and will not jump through infinite hoops. Biases are a strange thing. “High performers” aren’t one homogenous group; take a staff engineer at a FAANG and plop them in a role at a startup or vice versa and you’ll find very quickly that high performers are a product of environment (IME). The people you need to ship something at a big company will sink your startup, and the people who will lead a startup to unicorn levels of success will flounder in frustration in a big corp. Finding high performers is really hard, as you said it’s a filtering problem, and it’s very much based on vibes and feelings. Leetcode, take home tests, on site tests, discussions about projects all filter for specific things - some or many of which aren’t related to the job at hand. If we removed the “risk of leaving current job element” the only way to do it would be to give someone a 3 month trial and see if they’re a fit. Honestly you probably know in your gut by week 2 if it’s going to work or not. | | |
| ▲ | ghaff 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It doesn't even need to be startups versus FANNG. I've seen first-hand how people hired into various roles aren't a great fit for roles as a company grows and changes. Of course, they can adapt to various degrees but they'd probably never have been hired for the roles they're now in. The problem with trials is that people often have a current job of some sort and having things not work out puts them in a difficult situation. May happen anyway but, generally, a new job is assumed to be at least a somewhat stable situation. | | |
| ▲ | maccard 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The problem with trials is that people often have a current job of some sort and having things not work out puts them in a difficult situation. May happen anyway but, generally, a new job is assumed to be at least a somewhat stable situation. Totally, and I’d never say “hey I think you might be a fit, let’s try it out for 3 months”. But if we interview someone I’m just doing my best to try and figure out do they get on with the team, do they have the right skill set match for the gap we’re trying to fill and will their working style work in the org. Everything after that is (unfortunately) up to how it goes when we’re working together. |
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| ▲ | dasil003 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Agreed, that's why I said used the phrasing "tend to". There's no silver bullet. |
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| ▲ | dan-robertson an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think being successful makes hiring easier because you can source better candidates, and being big makes hiring easier because candidates are more likely to know people at the firm who can use referrals to work around otherwise broken systems. It’s perhaps also worth noting that lots of companies used to copy how Microsoft did interviews and later they copied how google did interviews so clearly there were some ideas that those companies were good at hiring. (I’m not sure this strategy was that good. The problem for the Microsoft or google type companies is filtering out acceptable hires from a deluge of applicants with acceptably low errors and costs; the challenge for less desirable firms is sourcing candidates who are both high quality and not about to be hired by Microsoft or Google) One company that comes to mind when I think about being good at hiring was one that recruited a bunch from my university around when I was graduating. Their particular specialty was hiring illegible graduates with a lot of potential (eg classicists, science students without little programming, etc), training them well, and effectively underpaying them a bit for how skilled they were (which only worked out because the UK has a pretty shit job market for tech and because those people liked working there). I think it was more effective for them than trying to hire the same computer science graduates as everyone else would have been. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | thesumofall 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Because it is really hard to reliably hire good people. Almost all typical signals & methods (CVs, experience based interviews, …) have very low reliability. An IQ test has the highest reliability according to studies but would be illegal in most jurisdictions. Plus, hiring managers frequently don’t know what they want or they believe they want something that they actually don’t |
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| ▲ | tptacek an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | IQ tests in employment are not illegal. This is an Internet myth. Several large corporations (with deep pockets for employment lawyers to go after) openly use them. The reason more companies don't use IQ tests in candidate qualification is that they don't work well. | |
| ▲ | prepend an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Where is an IQ test illegal? I remember taking one for my first job in Florida, but the company stopped because it wasn’t a useful signal. IQ is correlated to many things (eg, income) but I’m not sure about job performance. Maybe for some industries. I was working for a software company and it seemed pretty useless for hiring or selecting project team members. |
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| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The best hiring is generally expected to happen through referrals, so there's not a ton of pressure to improve the public application pipeline beyond the minimum required to keep it functional. |
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| ▲ | 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Here's the secret: it's still just gambling. Elon musk isn't a trillionaire because he brought something special to the table; it's because he was able to perform the martigale enough times and he arbitrarily reached the top. Hiring is exactly the same thing, even when trying to do it on merit, people are simply poor judges of character, ability and the rest. Most of society is governed by people who simply kept getting lucky and kept doubling down because their ego demanded it and their last roll of the dice didn't drive them to poverty or happiness. |
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| ▲ | prepend an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | There’s certainly luck involved, but it’s not random. Why aren’t there more Elon Musks? It’s not like the universe just picks a rando every 1000 years and it’s Elon Musk now and Mansa Musa last time. I think similarly, there are random elements but hiring is not random. People aren’t randomly successful or not. There are many factors, most based on individual decisions and group alignments, I think. | | |
| ▲ | cloche 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Imagine you have a coin-flipping tournament with a large number of people - perhaps even billions. 2 people face off in rounds and the winner advances. By the end someone will have won all their rounds. Is this person skilled or lucky? |
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| ▲ | cyanydeez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | People really want _their_ position to be meritocracy because their ego can't handle alternatives of a chaotic world. |
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| ▲ | metalspot 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
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