| ▲ | zuzululu 8 hours ago |
| America is the place for very few people to get wealthy relatively compared to the rest is more accurate. I don't know how long this asymmetric upside down pyramid structure will hold. Monopoly on violence requires participants to believe in its continuity, any fracture in perception no matter how small, will create an increasingly chaotic redistribution effect. |
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| ▲ | nunez 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Disagree. I have gripes with my country right now, but it's impossible to ignore how much easier to make and save a lot of money here in the US compared to other places. First, it's so easy to start a business in the US. $1000 (maybe less?) gets you an LLC or an S-Corp, properly done with an accountant. $200/mo gets you a virtual office or a coworking space. Tax code is also friendly to small businesses. Healthcare is the only disadvantage, though you can get on group plans to work around that. If you have an idea, it's easy (well, easier) to scale it in the US. Actually, going back to taxes. Tax in the US is CHEAP compared to other developed countries. I met someone from Denmark some time ago that told my wife and I that they left to escape 50% taxes. Here, the worst you'll do is ~38%, federal, state and city combined. This means that you can make great money as a worker bee depending on the industry. All of this is a major reason why so many people all over the world come to the US, make their money (with enough to send to family back home) and move back. |
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| ▲ | gottorf 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "The rest" is still quite wealthy, even by today's developed economy standards. Median household disposable income is higher in Mississippi, a state widely panned for its poverty, than Germany, the richest major EU nation. In American discourse, there's a ton of talk about inequality from the haves against the have-mores, pushing policy that often times will lead to worse outcomes for the have-nots. |
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| ▲ | micro2588 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | median household income is not higher in missisippi vs germany, especially not true if you adjust for the value of healthcare, education, and social benefits including time off work. | | |
| ▲ | gottorf 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are, of course, many ways to measure this, some of which are slightly higher for Germany and some for Mississippi. Many are in the same ballpark, which is pretty crazy to think about. Many of these statistics take into account the taxpayer-funded programs you mentioned. Broadly speaking, the median Mississippian is about as rich as the median German, with the tradeoff being that the Mississippian has greater access to private goods (e.g. a fishing boat or a big car), whereas the German has greater access to public goods (e.g. socialized insurance or college). My point is that even "the poor" in America are really quite well off, and not just in historical terms. | | |
| ▲ | micro2588 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why is the median considered "poor"? The true poor in Mississippi are way worse off than those in Germany. If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life like public capital, education, healthcare, time off with family, a retirement, total years on this earth and ignore the insane inequality in Mississippi then sure the median numbers are not that far off. | | |
| ▲ | gottorf 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Why is the median considered "poor" Because most big-city coastal Americans think of the median Mississippian as that way. > If you neglect everything it takes to live a good life [...] We're speaking past each other somewhat. You seem to have a belief system that says a good life is not possible without the stuff that Germany provides via taxation and redistribution. Whether that stuff is a necessary or sufficient condition for a good life for you, I'm not sure; but it is clear you place a lot of importance on it. I'm saying that in America, more of those things are left to choice to the people, and that a good life, even a great life, is available to the average Joe (hence my banging on about the median) in one of the poorest states in the union, to a degree that is not matched anywhere else. Put another way: you've defined a good life in large part as access to taxpayer-subsidized goods and services, or at any rate the lifestyle outcomes enabled by such access. By that metric, you're right, Mississippi comes behind Germany, and America as a whole likely behind Germany. But if you look at people voting with their feet over the past few decades, more Germans settled in America than the other way around in absolute numbers; which is even more striking if you consider the difference in population. Clearly there exist people who value the stuff that America has to offer that Germany doesn't. | | |
| ▲ | micro2588 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Emigration of Germans to the USA is only 10,00-15,000 people per year since 2000 and is trending down especially since 2016 to lowest levels ever. Emigration of US citizens to Germany started from almost nothing around the same time and is now trending up to almost 1,500 people a year. We are talking about a small number of decidedly non median people in either case but even then the rate of change is clear, neglecting the fact that Germans learn English in public school while Americans typically don't have public schooling in German. My family is descended from German immigrants who came during the 1930s to escape right wing authoritarianism. |
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| ▲ | computerex 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Your point is totally and completely wrong. Germany has public benefits that actually matter. Germany's average life expectancy is ahead of Mississippi by *10 years*. Germany ranks as one of the highest in the world in general satisfaction of the people, Mississippi does not. | | |
| ▲ | gottorf 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Your point is totally and completely wrong. Germany has public benefits that actually matter. Objectively wrong, because Germany does better in the things that subjectively matter to you? > Germany's average life expectancy is ahead of Mississippi by 10 years. Comparing like for like, that gap drops down to 5-6 years and puts Mississippi on par with, say, Thailand or Latvia. Hardly grounds for condemnation. > Germany ranks as one of the highest in the world in general satisfaction of the people, Mississippi does not. Those rankings are all stupid, but in most of the ones I've seen, Germany ranks a scant few spots higher than the US. Sure, if Mississippi were a country, the distance would be greater, but how meaningful is it? I just saw one that ranks Saudi Arabia and El Salvador ahead of Spain and Italy[0]. And in any case, why do people keep leaving those satisfactory countries for America? [0]: https://data.worldhappiness.report/table | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > general satisfaction of the people Different groups of people have different ideas of what "general satisfaction" is. Hence, such cross-group studies are pretty suspect. | | |
| ▲ | micro2588 an hour ago | parent [-] | | One objective measure of satisfaction is if you are alive and healthy, hard to be satisfied otherwise. |
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| ▲ | computerex 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And in any case, why do people keep leaving those satisfactory countries for America? https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2026/... America used to be a great place to be.
To put it in perspective, I myself am an American in the top 5% of earning households. I am strongly considering leaving. The value is no longer here. I don't want to live in a country where my healthcare is conditional, on principal. I don't want to live in a country where the Epstein class is protected. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > used to be People in America used to pay for healthcare out of pocket, instead of relying on insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, etc. > where the Epstein class is protected Epstein died in jail. > The value is no longer here Rosie O'Donnell didn't stay in Ireland very long. > I am strongly considering leaving. Fortunately, you live in a country where nobody is going to stop you from leaving. |
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| ▲ | zuzululu 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | WalterBright 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The top 1% of America pays 40% of the federal income taxes. Getting rid of the rich is probably a pretty bad idea for the rest of us. |
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| ▲ | overfeed 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The 1% hold more than 40% of the wealth, and therefore should be paying much more than 40% of income taxes, based on proportion alone - nevermind historic precedence before trickle-down Reaganomics. When the top 1% are not in the top tax bracket, something is horribly wrong. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | They are in the top tax bracket. The federal income tax is based on income, not wealth. | | |
| ▲ | overfeed an hour ago | parent [-] | | > They are in the top tax bracket They are not in the top bracket by choice - a luxury option unavailable to non-wealthy people in the working middle-class who actually are in the top tax bracket. As you helpfully noted in your second half of your comment, high wealth, deliberately low income[0] means they are not in the top tax bracket[1] on the basis of their carefully calculated, tax-optimized income. 0. Taxable events need be overhauled to cover loopholes, including removing tax-advantages of borrowing against securities. The legal fiction that allows rich people to spend money not recognized as income is deleterious. 1. Warren Buffet, IIRC, noted his assistant was in a higher tax bracket than him. | | |
| ▲ | latency-guy2 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > As you helpfully noted in your second half of your comment, high wealth, deliberately low income[0] means they are not in the top tax bracket[1] on the basis of their carefully calculated, tax-optimized income. There is no optimization for anything actually, its just income. There's lots of different forms of taxes that the US government takes part in as you know. Quitting your day job removes the income part until distribution/settlement for any owned assets. You can argue for a wealth tax, but conflating two separate concepts is not how you do it. | | |
| ▲ | overfeed 22 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > You can argue for a wealth tax My footnotes are the entirety of my argument, and it's not even as radical as a wealth tax. My argument has 2 easy steps: 1. Remove the arbitrage between actual liquidity events and the limited set of what the IRS currently considers taxable events. Borrowing against securities not being taxable is an example of what's broken. Arbitrage using trusts or LLCs needs to be deleted, based on controlling interests and/or ultimate beneficiary. 2. Align tax rates on capital gains vs. income |
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| ▲ | 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | wewtyflakes 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a byproduct of wild wealth disparity, not because the rich are so generous with paying the government. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And if you take away their money, then who is going to fund the government and all those wealth redistribution programs? | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | There are US state governments discovering this right now. I would have thought it was obvious. |
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| ▲ | blanched 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Right - and iirc the bottom of the 1% is somewhere around 700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion. | | |
| ▲ | fsckboy 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | >700k. Still a ton of money, but very very far off from a billion that 700K is income, but the billion is assets. earning 700K is the income from $10 million in the stock market (although working to earn $700K is in exchange for you time while the income from $10 mil is passive. OTOH people with the work ethic to earn like that tend to like what they do. a billion in the stock market is $70 million a year, a large number but far from a billion. TLDR: 700K compares to a billion 1 in 1000, but the truth is closer to 1 in 100 |
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| ▲ | fsckboy 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >a byproduct of wild wealth disparity, not because the rich are so generous with paying the government you're overcorrecting WAY too far. Tax rate percentages are much higher on high income people, and THAT is why they pay most of the federal budget, it's forced generosity paying the government. and it's actually the top 20% who dominate income and taxes, but including that extra 19% is important because that is the class of people ("coastal elites") who have a (all too human) tendency to rig the system in favor of their children in terms of good schools, universities, learning high status pasttimes, "internships" at prestigious institutions, rent paid in high value/opportunity areas after university etc. These high income people basically earn their livings from the 1%. (that should not be interpreted as a pure sign of oligopoly, capitalist markets measure productivity, and that's how it works out, production in these industries is highly valued by the populace, but turnover of these people is high, where the top of the list is almost invariably new people each generation.) |
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| ▲ | hnav 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The top %1 is a strawman invented by the top 0.01%. |
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