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| ▲ | cosmicgadget 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't think there is surprise that higher learning is associated with progressivism. I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors. | | |
| ▲ | try_the_bass 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I don't think there is surprise that higher learning is associated with progressivism. This is such a wildly elitist take. There's nothing intrinsically progressive about education, and to just declare so as fact is an excellent example of the exact kind of hostility that keeps non-progressives from being at home in higher education. > I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors. Is it really surprising that people who disagree with someone's politics would let that bleed over into their assessment of that person's professional abilities? We literally see this everywhere! People use a person's politics to discredit other aspects of their being all the time. Conservative professors are a rare breed in academia because non-conservatives in academia make it a very hostile workplace environment. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > just declare so as fact is an excellent example of the exact kind of hostility that keeps non-progressives from being at home in higher education. My friend, I simply stated a conclusion that is very commonly accepted, including by conservatives (hints: populism, religion, gender roles). You're welcome to dispute it but instead you declare it 'hostile'. If conservatives think this is offensive then I'll add that to the list of reasons they seem to avoid scenarios where their viewpoints are challenged (because that's how academia works). > Is it really surprising that people who disagree with someone's politics would let that bleed over into their assessment of that person's professional abilities? It certainly can. That's a long way from a coordinated conspiracy. And there are layers of insulation like wanting talent regardless of personality and avoiding legal issues. > Conservative professors are a rare breed in academia because non-conservatives in academia make it a very hostile workplace environment. Like stealing their lunch or lighting them up in a reply-all or what are we talking about here? Note I'm not freaking out that you "just declared something as a fact". | | |
| ▲ | try_the_bass 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > My friend, I simply stated a conclusion that is very commonly accepted, including by conservatives (hints: populism, religion, gender roles). People commonly accept that God exists, too, all across the political spectrum. That doesn't mean he actually does exist, though. "Commonly accepted" does not mean "is true". > It certainly can. That's a long way from a coordinated conspiracy. And there are layers of insulation like wanting talent regardless of personality and avoiding legal issues. No one in this thread is claiming a "coordinated conspiracy", just years and years of ever increasing political bias amongst faculty at universities in the U.S. C'mon, implicit bias training is supposed to teach you about how the negative impacts of persistent, low-grade bias accumulate over time, right? > Like stealing their lunch or lighting them up in a reply-all or what are we talking about here? Note I'm not freaking out that you "just declared something as a fact". Like not inviting them to conferences, social gatherings, networking opportunities, etc. Again, decades of small bias add up. I mean, isn't that the entire thesis of things like "systemic racism"? Why would that not also be true in other areas? Don't get me wrong, I believe theories like systemic racism have merit and are largely true. I just acknowledge that, if it's true that being black in America is an inherent disadvantage due to years of accumulated bias, it's probably also true that being conservative in academia is also an inherent disadvantage, due to the same mechanism. All that being said, way to double down on the elitism! | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 35 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > "Commonly accepted" does not mean "is true". Correct. And if you asserted the existence of a god based on this common notion I wouldn't scream that it's religous hostility. Of course, dieties are not a great example here since they're based purely on people's superstitions. > No one in this thread is claiming a "coordinated conspiracy" From above: "Conservatives have been basically purged from academia over the last 30 years" Most political purges I'm familiar with aren't "oops, implicit bias!" At the start of this I said: "I think the surprise is that someone believes its indicative of a giant conspiracy to exile conservative professors." If you agree with this could have saved yourself a lot of trouble. > Like not inviting them to conferences, social gatherings, networking opportunities, etc. We're talking about adults, right? In any event, it would be interesting to see some stats or hear some anecdotes on the matter. > Again, decades of small bias add up. Does it? Seems far more likely to settle on some sort of median. It's just that the median is considered 'leftist' because it embraces the scientific method while most conservative platforms need to deny evolution, climate change, etc. > it's probably also true that being conservative in academia is also an inherent disadvantage, due to the same mechanism. There are far, far more dissimilarities. |
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| ▲ | javascriptfan69 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What if its just self selection? Conservatives spread propaganda about woke universities -> conservative kids are less likely to go. Do this for decades and you end up in the situation we're in. Either that or conservatives are just stupider and less likely to be academics; which is, in my opinion, more likely than your hypothesis about grand conspiracy. | | |
| ▲ | cosmicgadget 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And it's more than the self selection force of conseratives being too frightened that college will change their worldview. Take a liberal and a conservative with equivalent postgraduate degrees. Now offer them their choice of a faculty position or a C-suite career track. Based on the values that define their respective ideologies, is it a coin toss for which path either chooses? | |
| ▲ | anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Or even that the categories are shifting. People who hold perfectly reasonable classical Conservative viewpoints are now excluded from the Republican party. An institution failing to shift more right doesn't make it biased. | |
| ▲ | Levitz 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What if it's not that? Let me give you a hint: the concept of DEI statement to apply for a position exists |
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| ▲ | jasonlotito 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That doesn't show they were purged. There are many reasons their numbers declined. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just like there are many reasons why the climate is getting warmer, not just humans. See how easy hand waving is? | | |
| ▲ | esarbe 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That human industrial activities are the primary direct causation of the currently observed climate change is a scientific fact, proven beyond any reasonable doubt. What you show is that there are not many conservatives in academia. The reason for that is manifold. It could be that they are forced out. It could be that their views are changed with higher learning and turn progressive. It could be that conservatives self-select to not go into academia. Pointing that out is not hand-waving. | |
| ▲ | jasonlotito 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So you admit you were lying. Gotcha. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are not many reasons for climate change, it is in fact just humans. That should be obvious. | | |
| ▲ | anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ok, so we establish that "Climate change could seem to have many causes, but educated people know that human activity is the proven cause of the majority of the change." And now you have another situation where "there could be many causes for the change X". And you think that because Climate Change followed that pattern above, X must necessarily have only one real cause, and that cause is your preferred pet theory. Does not sound like a convincing argument. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Let's just talk about the recent (past 500 years) change in the insulation properties of the planet's atmosphere. It's been in a constant burbling flux that has many factors, fires, volcanoes, etc all contribute to the steady level of churn. The substantial change away from baseline is well recorded, tied back to sources by isotopes, and has a single cause - carbon dioxide by products from the combustion and release of previously sequestered carbon sources. There's no doubt about that - there are multiple atmospheric libraries of gases from various parts of the world to back that up. The data source sets for atmospheric makeup and ocean thermoclines are deeply tied into Cold War nuclear test monitoring and watching enemies, not some hippy dippy eco friendly new age hand wavyness. |
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| ▲ | xdennis 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > That doesn't show they were purged. There are many reasons their numbers declined. Fun fact, what you're arguing is actually one of the reasons Charlie was murdered. He notoriously said that the Civil Rights Act was a mistake. He specifically referred to Title VII which states even a neutral policy can be racism if it produces disparate impact[1] in practice. That is, if a neutral policy results in fewer black people being hired, that's evidence of racism. Charlie disagreed with that. It's fun to see leftists argue the same when it comes to discrimination against right wing or centrist academics. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact | | |
| ▲ | anon84873628 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, a key difference is that race is an intrinsic immutable attribute, and political views aren't. The paradox of tolerance is real. And more practically, it's impossible to guarantee representation of all viewpoints because there are an infinite number of them. | | |
| ▲ | try_the_bass 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > race is an intrinsic immutable attribute Is it? Care you define who makes up the "white race"? Or any other overly-broad category that typically gets bandied about as "race"? From my perspective, as someone who is flexibly categorized as "white" or "latino", depending on whatever is most convenient for the categorizer, "race" is a remarkable fluid label. Most people can't even agree on what "race" folks of mixed ethnic heritage actually are. Race is a social construct. There's nothing intrinsic or immutable about any social construct. | | |
| ▲ | anon84873628 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you know perfectly well my meaning in context of the comment thread I was replying to. Yes, some people are mixed ethnicity or "white passing". Yes societal views changes ("Italian used to not be considered white"). At the end of the day, most people fall into one of the categories and don't get to change that. | | |
| ▲ | defrost 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Which categories are these though? William Z. Ripley's 1899 The Races of Europe or more, say, Steven Coons Carleton's 1939 treatise? | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. But since you're insisting that this be spelled out: The categories are quite arbitrary, can vary, and can change. Yes, race is a social construct. The point is the physical attributes that often define the categories cannot be significantly changed. One can't particularly make their own skin lighter, regardless of people with marginal skin tones being able to change other aspects about themselves to pass for a lighter category, or regardless of being able to go to a different community where one might be in the lighter category by default. Compare with say how easy it is for someone with different political views to just hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about DEI, just as one had to hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers were waxing poetic about the virtues of mega golf or owning a boat, just as one might have to hold their tongue these days when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about the virtues of fascism. (also can we stop using the word "conservative" as a lazy synonym? Applying that label to the Republican party after ~2020 is absurd) | | |
| ▲ | defrost 12 minutes ago | parent [-] | | The categories are quite arbitrary, can vary, and can change. Yes, race is a social construct. Obviously. > Compare with say how easy it is for someone with different political views to just hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about DEI, just as one had to hold their tongue when bureaucrats and true believers were waxing poetic about the virtues of mega golf or owning a boat, just as one might have to hold their tongue these days when bureaucrats and true believers are waxing poetic about the virtues of fascism. That seems very un-Australian; I'm unfamiliar with the concept of letting rank stupidity ride w/out having a poke at it, and a lot of people have boats, big, small, whatever. I'm quite fond of shed built ground effect boat/planes FWiW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ILbQHnHPnY > can we stop using the word "conservative" as a lazy synonym? Applying that label to the Republican party after ~2020 is absurd TBH I'm not sure I have ever done that; "Conservative" varies by country, as does "Liberal". |
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| ▲ | try_the_bass 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > I think you know perfectly well my meaning in context of the comment thread I was replying to. No, I don't, and smugly insinuating I have some ulterior motive or whatever is, frankly, offensive. I asked you a question because I didn't know what you meant, because you made a statement that was wildly ambiguous even with well-defined context. > most people fall into one of the categories One of... Which categories, exactly? This is why I'm asking. You keep making statements as if they're somehow inherently obvious, but... I can think of many different competing definitions of "race", so I'm trying to figure out which one you're using, or if you're even using one at all. |
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| ▲ | defrost 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > that race is an intrinsic immutable attribute Not to those familiar with the history of the US Census racial classifications, given the number of times the categories shifted and changed it seems more than a little opinionated. | | |
| ▲ | anon84873628 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ok fine, let's call it "ethnicity" then. Would you and your sibling care to comment on the actual point of the parent comment thread? | | |
| ▲ | defrost 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > fine, let's call it "ethnicity" then. Ethnicity is mostly stable for most individuals, sure, but it too is hardly immutable - people do and have changed their countries, social cultures, and daily language usage- even to the point of struggling to think and talk in their primary birth languages. > care to comment on the actual point of the parent comment thread? Ahh, that "Charlie" (Kirk) had opinions, that US science is in chaos, that US use of the phrase "leftists" is always grating, that a two party Hotelling's law cluster feck inevitably resulting from US style elections is inadequate to politically represent a large population? There's a lot going on here; one thing at a time is that race being an "an intrinsic immutable attribute" is all manner of horseshit. |
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| ▲ | mullingitover 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | logicchains 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The phrase wasn't concocted by the right wing, it's was coined by a left-winger as an explicit plan of approach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_march_through_the_institu... | | |
| ▲ | magicalist 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > To extend the base of the student movement, Rudi Dutschke has proposed the strategy of the long march through the institutions: working against the established institutions while working within them, but not simply by 'boring from within', rather by 'doing the job', learning (how to program and read computers, how to teach at all levels of education, how to use the mass media, how to organize production, how to recognize and eschew planned obsolescence, how to design, et cetera), and at the same time preserving one's own consciousness in working with others. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that a German student activist's definitionally anodyne proposal to engage with society and barely referenced in the decades since has probably been coopted more than a little to concoct a new boogeyman for the right wing. | |
| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, often one wing of political thought leaders will adopt terms and ideas from the other wing to serve as a foundation for their theories. I never suggested that the term itself was invented by someone on the right, merely that it’s a term widely used to describe the very specific idea of a calculated political effort to expel conservatives from academia. Ironically, Rudi’s ambitions were much more grand than simply transforming academia, he wanted to transform society. Anyway, what you presented is not a “gotcha”, despite the fact that I’ve heard it a million times when engaging with right wing “intellectuals”. It’s still a conspiracy theory. |
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| ▲ | WarmWash 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not especially a "right wing theory" anymore than climate change is a "left wing theory" https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/05/conservati... | | |
| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You misunderstand, the idea of the “Long March Through the Institutions” is that innocent conservative intellectuals are the victims of a central, coordinated campaign for them to be expelled from academia in order to transform academia into an institution that serves leftwing agendas. It’s an explicit rejection that such a transformation could occur naturally, and can fairly be considered a conspiracy theory by the mainstream specifically because it meets Barkun’s criteria for conspiracy theories: - nothing happens by accident
- nothing is as it seems
- everything is connected
as well as the lack of a smoking gun. | | |
| ▲ | WarmWash 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't really buy that idea, but like the one black guy at the Country Line Dance, you get the strong vibe you are not in the right place, and kind of just want to leave, regardless of how people are upfront treating you. | | |
| ▲ | intuitionist 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The people you’re talking to don’t understand why you would ever want to have the Wrong Kind of Person around an institution as sacred as the university | |
| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah you may not believe it personally but there are definitely many in the reactionary right who do. It’s not difficult to find their forums. |
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