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miroljub 3 days ago

As a European, I trust Chinese AI providers more than American. Cloud act did it for me.

tranceylc 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Canadian, and I also agree. It’s hard to avoid but I try not to use any American service or data storage.

14u2c 2 days ago | parent [-]

And that's fine of course, but it's worth noting that you're making a decision driven by emotion rather than data.

Barrin92 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

How so, with the Snowden leaks we learned the extent of American digital espionage in Europe, the US government puts pressure on Europe to prevent taxation or regulation of American business and even European citizens have become the subject of mistreatment in American airports based on their digital profiles. We can enter China visa free.

Given that you're big on data and don't like emotions, what have the Chinese materially done to us Europeans we ought to care about?

WarmWash 2 days ago | parent [-]

Selling Russia weapons to help kill Ukrainians, buying Russian oil/gas to help kill Ukrainians.

But free AI models or something, right?

Barrin92 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

They don't sell weapons to Russia, as Wang Yi said in Brussels, if they'd put their full weight behind Russia the war would be over, this is the middle position for them.

Which, I agree with you btw, I don't like but I can understand rationally. We still buy oil and gas from Russia too. And with 20% of the world's supply casually going offline after America's own 3 day special miltary operation the Chinese would be insane not to.

What one cannot understand rationally to come back to the Snowden era in which Denmark spied on us in Germany on behalf of the US, which is insane to begin with, is being threatened a decade later with annexation of their territory. China is on some fronts a rival, hence the tension around Russia, but the US is as destabilizing and unpredictable for the world as Russia itself now.

Americans truly seem to have no concept that they're in the middle of their own post-Soviet meltdown and look like a rogue state to the world now, which makes China which is no saint more and more attractive simply by being a source of order.

lbreakjai 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The other option is the one that kills palestinians, and we don't even get free models out of it.

inigyou 2 days ago | parent [-]

But don't you get it, Ukrainians are worth more than Palestinians because... some reason

throw1234567891 2 days ago | parent [-]

Because Israel. Call out the problem by name .

k4rli 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's hard to call either side good. It can be argued that the side which had the highest powers and oligarchs implicated in Epstein files, and which has also threatened attacks on European nations, isn't the better option. Also the nation which actively funds the war in middle-east.

Levitz 2 days ago | parent [-]

If only the US was a little bit more like China, nobody would ever know about the Epstein files.

You think China doesn't get its hands dirty because of some moral superiority? The country is utterly brutal towards its own citizens, what makes you think that the lack of warmongering is anything but inability?

NicoJuicy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The threats made by Trump are in my dataset

villish 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Both China and the US can compel businesses to hand over data. There is no reason to trust any service that doesn't have strong built in privacy.

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Compel? I am confused, all data in China is held in datacentres which the state has full access to, that is the terms of their operation and why some big tech US companies didn't want to operate in China. They don't need to "compel" anyone, the CCP has people at every large company supervising employees, and they already have full access to your data.

I am always completely baffled by these comments that not only get basic facts wrong but appear unable to conceive of a situation where the everything is subordinate to the state.

There is no negotiation, there is no due process, you give access to everything before you start or you can't operate.

reverius42 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't this essentially true in the US too though? The feds can show up at your data center with a National Security Letter and demand access at gunpoint. And you have to give it to them, because guns, and you can't ever tell anyone about it because that's what it says in the National Security Letter and also because guns.

handle584 2 days ago | parent [-]

Your reply already shows the difference. In US you have the default expectation of privacy, until the feds get their eyes on you. Meanwhile in China the default expectation is no privacy, exactly as OP argued.

This system in action is best demonstrated during the lock-down period of COVID, when any random dude who contracted the virus would immediately have their personal life for the previous week/month published nationwide to the hour, and those who have overlap will immediately get a 14 day lock-down at home.

I have not seen surveillance done with such ease and breath elsewhere. And local PD already have access to such info, and there are scandals where police sell such info for profit.

svachalek 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it so different in the US? These are just the surveillance we know about, and they're not openly telling us about these, they're actively fighting public knowledge of such programs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance

Giefo6ah 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What would be the practical difference between an order from a party cadre in a private firm and a national security letter?

WarmWash 2 days ago | parent [-]

A legitimate legal system with judges who have no obligation to anyone or anything besides the constitution first, and laws second.

edelhans 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

And what makes you think that the US still has such a system?

myko 2 days ago | parent [-]

True that it is collapsing which is sad but it does, in part, still function. We are the proverbial frog in the pot.

inigyou 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Neither of them has that

reverius42 2 days ago | parent [-]

Post-Snowden, thinking that the US national security apparatus is subordinate to judges and the Constitution is naive and uninformed.

Vasbarlog 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s not China that is threatening to annex Greenland though.

fc417fc802 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Because China has never invaded or annexed a neighbor ... ?

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When it comes to annexation, China doesn't threaten, they just invade and extinguish.

kingofthehill98 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, I remember clearly when China invaded/bombed: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Panama, Syria...

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You absolutely should remember the Chinese war with the first of those; if you have trouble, a good way to remind yourself is that it was not long after the US one.

coldtea 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, so getting 1 out of 10 he mentioned, even if it's their direct neighbor (where disputes happen for all countries), ain't bad! This absolutely means they're the same /s

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent [-]

If I had wanted to say “China and the US are the same”, I would have strung together a set of words that looked a lot more like “China and the US are the same” than the ones that I actually posted.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could you give me some examples? Which wars do you have in mind?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Tibet, Manchuria, it should be somewhat obvious that a nation that is as ethnically diverse as China was not a nation borne out of lots of different people deciding simultaneously that they would like to create a country together.

What is modern China has only existed for 100 years or so. When the country collapsed there were ethnic divisions that were erased after the country was unified.

The hallmark of successful ethnic cleansing is people claiming that there were never any wars, that things were always this way. The same is true of Kaliningrad, the most German city, centuries of history as a leading nation within Germany and the HRE, now a completely Russian city. It is only in the West that you see any narrative around division, in places like China or Russia history is erased (and how could it be any other way, the cornerstone of Chinese politics is one nation, one people...there is no political value in this narrative in Western countries).

deadfoxygrandpa 2 days ago | parent [-]

manchuria? are you sure that's a good example?

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo...

nick__m 2 days ago | parent [-]

Could you give a recent example? Because your example is as pertinent as the overthrowing of Guatemala's democratically elected President in 1954 by the CIA.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't remember the U.S. federal government declaring Guatemala a U.S. territory and asking all Guatemalans to change their official language.

What China did in Tibet is closer to what the U.S. did with Hawaii.

toasty228 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And when it comes to the US, every accusation is a confession.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent [-]

It certainly wasn't a denial. China could learn a lot from that.

guywithahat 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There's nothing wrong with the US buying greenland, which has been done for territories around the world?

The US has a long history of protecting individual freedoms, China does not. There's an irony that you're aware of the misgivings of the US because we have free speech protections. You're probably less aware of the misgivings of the EU because they regularly arrest citizens for speech, and no awareness of the issues with China because they'll just disappear journalists in the night.

ascorbic 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You're kinda missing the important bit there: buying Greenland under threat of invasion

guywithahat a day ago | parent [-]

I think you're kind of missing the important bit; there is no threat of invasion and there never has been. People just want reasons to be mad at Trump, and so they make things up

kachnuv_ocasek 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How long has the history of the US protecting the individual freedoms of non-white or non-rich citizens been?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Since the late 60s there has been explicit federal legislation. I assume you meant this as a rhetorical question but there is a definite answer because the US is a transparent system. Law is passed, the courts enforce.

The fact that you are unable to answer this question about China where it is often unclear why certain people are being targeted should demonstrate how big the gap is. For example, when Xi's first corruption crackdown happened, it turned out that it was being orchestrated in part by someone in their 90s who had left front-line politics twenty years ago (and much of why that happened is unclear, we are only just learning about things that happened in Chinese politics multiple decades ago so it will be a while before we know...we do know that Xi was then able to make unilateral sweeping changes to his own role shortly after that broke every convention of the last 5 decades)...it is difficult to compare this to anything that happens in any other political system. In China, you find out someone has been executed for reasons that are obviously not explicit months after it has happened.

It is genuinely quite difficult to compare to anything else. 6 people meet in a room, they have almost all the power, and maybe you will read about what they might have said 4 decades later in a book...that will never be published in China.

inigyou 2 days ago | parent [-]

There was legislation, sure. Were the people actually protected or did they just write a paper saying they were protected?

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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kingofthehill98 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>The US has a long history of protecting individual freedoms

You can't be serious.

Was the individual freedom of those 120 Iranian girls protected?

Was the individual freedom of Renée Good protected? Alex Pretti?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent [-]

The inability to conceive of a country where these things would happen and you would have no idea that it had ever happened...and, perhaps more importantly, wouldn't care that you didn't know.

miroljub 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but China can't arrest me if they don't like what they see in my data.

USA and its vassals can.

deer6 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I spoke with a high up fella in a uk firm - same thing - trusting china more. Couldn’t believe it when he said.

Americans you wanted isolation - you’re gonna get it eventually!

inigyou 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

China has something equivalent but as usual, it's harder for their spying to affect you. For now.

uberex 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I trust them as a cloud less than US but don't completely trust US.

vzcx 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As an American, I trust Chinese AI providers more than American.

c03 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Same

WarmWash 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The chinese providers are just the CCP. They don't even need a cloud act...

dryarzeg 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think too many people are conflating Chinese providers with Chinese models - you can easily have Chinese models safely (well, relatively safely, I guess) hosted on US or EU infrastructure.

crims0n 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Case in point, Microsoft just announced it is toying with the idea of using DeepSeek as a cheaper model tier in CoPilot. They are hosting the model themselves.

Swinx43 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly this. For some reason this is constantly being overlooked/confused. It is very possible to deploy these models inside your own VPC on the big cloud providers and have it be completely secure. I would argue that is even more secure than trusting a model provider’s native API as your traffic is not staying inside your own controlled cloud environment.

2 days ago | parent [-]
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jay_kyburz 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I was reading the threads about local AI closely yesterday. Some people seem happy with it.

If I had the cash, I'd spend 6-10k on a strix halo with 128 GB and run it local with no internet connection. I think the Framework desktop is sold out but there were others seem to be still available.

DANmode 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Interested in the reply to this.