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villish 3 days ago

Both China and the US can compel businesses to hand over data. There is no reason to trust any service that doesn't have strong built in privacy.

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Compel? I am confused, all data in China is held in datacentres which the state has full access to, that is the terms of their operation and why some big tech US companies didn't want to operate in China. They don't need to "compel" anyone, the CCP has people at every large company supervising employees, and they already have full access to your data.

I am always completely baffled by these comments that not only get basic facts wrong but appear unable to conceive of a situation where the everything is subordinate to the state.

There is no negotiation, there is no due process, you give access to everything before you start or you can't operate.

reverius42 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't this essentially true in the US too though? The feds can show up at your data center with a National Security Letter and demand access at gunpoint. And you have to give it to them, because guns, and you can't ever tell anyone about it because that's what it says in the National Security Letter and also because guns.

handle584 2 days ago | parent [-]

Your reply already shows the difference. In US you have the default expectation of privacy, until the feds get their eyes on you. Meanwhile in China the default expectation is no privacy, exactly as OP argued.

This system in action is best demonstrated during the lock-down period of COVID, when any random dude who contracted the virus would immediately have their personal life for the previous week/month published nationwide to the hour, and those who have overlap will immediately get a 14 day lock-down at home.

I have not seen surveillance done with such ease and breath elsewhere. And local PD already have access to such info, and there are scandals where police sell such info for profit.

svachalek 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it so different in the US? These are just the surveillance we know about, and they're not openly telling us about these, they're actively fighting public knowledge of such programs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_surveillance

Giefo6ah 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What would be the practical difference between an order from a party cadre in a private firm and a national security letter?

WarmWash 2 days ago | parent [-]

A legitimate legal system with judges who have no obligation to anyone or anything besides the constitution first, and laws second.

edelhans 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

And what makes you think that the US still has such a system?

myko 2 days ago | parent [-]

True that it is collapsing which is sad but it does, in part, still function. We are the proverbial frog in the pot.

inigyou 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Neither of them has that

reverius42 2 days ago | parent [-]

Post-Snowden, thinking that the US national security apparatus is subordinate to judges and the Constitution is naive and uninformed.

Vasbarlog 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s not China that is threatening to annex Greenland though.

fc417fc802 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Because China has never invaded or annexed a neighbor ... ?

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

When it comes to annexation, China doesn't threaten, they just invade and extinguish.

kingofthehill98 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah, I remember clearly when China invaded/bombed: Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela, Panama, Syria...

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You absolutely should remember the Chinese war with the first of those; if you have trouble, a good way to remind yourself is that it was not long after the US one.

coldtea 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, so getting 1 out of 10 he mentioned, even if it's their direct neighbor (where disputes happen for all countries), ain't bad! This absolutely means they're the same /s

dragonwriter 2 days ago | parent [-]

If I had wanted to say “China and the US are the same”, I would have strung together a set of words that looked a lot more like “China and the US are the same” than the ones that I actually posted.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

Xunjin 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could you give me some examples? Which wars do you have in mind?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Tibet, Manchuria, it should be somewhat obvious that a nation that is as ethnically diverse as China was not a nation borne out of lots of different people deciding simultaneously that they would like to create a country together.

What is modern China has only existed for 100 years or so. When the country collapsed there were ethnic divisions that were erased after the country was unified.

The hallmark of successful ethnic cleansing is people claiming that there were never any wars, that things were always this way. The same is true of Kaliningrad, the most German city, centuries of history as a leading nation within Germany and the HRE, now a completely Russian city. It is only in the West that you see any narrative around division, in places like China or Russia history is erased (and how could it be any other way, the cornerstone of Chinese politics is one nation, one people...there is no political value in this narrative in Western countries).

deadfoxygrandpa 2 days ago | parent [-]

manchuria? are you sure that's a good example?

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Tibet_by_the_Peo...

nick__m 2 days ago | parent [-]

Could you give a recent example? Because your example is as pertinent as the overthrowing of Guatemala's democratically elected President in 1954 by the CIA.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't remember the U.S. federal government declaring Guatemala a U.S. territory and asking all Guatemalans to change their official language.

What China did in Tibet is closer to what the U.S. did with Hawaii.

toasty228 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

And when it comes to the US, every accusation is a confession.

rib3ye 2 days ago | parent [-]

It certainly wasn't a denial. China could learn a lot from that.

guywithahat 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There's nothing wrong with the US buying greenland, which has been done for territories around the world?

The US has a long history of protecting individual freedoms, China does not. There's an irony that you're aware of the misgivings of the US because we have free speech protections. You're probably less aware of the misgivings of the EU because they regularly arrest citizens for speech, and no awareness of the issues with China because they'll just disappear journalists in the night.

ascorbic 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You're kinda missing the important bit there: buying Greenland under threat of invasion

guywithahat a day ago | parent [-]

I think you're kind of missing the important bit; there is no threat of invasion and there never has been. People just want reasons to be mad at Trump, and so they make things up

SideburnsOfDoom 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

> there is no threat of invasion of Greenland by the USA and there never has been.

This is a dumb take. You're starting with "I don't take their threats seriously" and conflating it with "it didn't happen at all". But it did happen.

> The Trump administration threatened military action to take control of Greenland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenland_crisis#Annexation_th...

kachnuv_ocasek 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How long has the history of the US protecting the individual freedoms of non-white or non-rich citizens been?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Since the late 60s there has been explicit federal legislation. I assume you meant this as a rhetorical question but there is a definite answer because the US is a transparent system. Law is passed, the courts enforce.

The fact that you are unable to answer this question about China where it is often unclear why certain people are being targeted should demonstrate how big the gap is. For example, when Xi's first corruption crackdown happened, it turned out that it was being orchestrated in part by someone in their 90s who had left front-line politics twenty years ago (and much of why that happened is unclear, we are only just learning about things that happened in Chinese politics multiple decades ago so it will be a while before we know...we do know that Xi was then able to make unilateral sweeping changes to his own role shortly after that broke every convention of the last 5 decades)...it is difficult to compare this to anything that happens in any other political system. In China, you find out someone has been executed for reasons that are obviously not explicit months after it has happened.

It is genuinely quite difficult to compare to anything else. 6 people meet in a room, they have almost all the power, and maybe you will read about what they might have said 4 decades later in a book...that will never be published in China.

inigyou 2 days ago | parent [-]

There was legislation, sure. Were the people actually protected or did they just write a paper saying they were protected?

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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kingofthehill98 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>The US has a long history of protecting individual freedoms

You can't be serious.

Was the individual freedom of those 120 Iranian girls protected?

Was the individual freedom of Renée Good protected? Alex Pretti?

skippyboxedhero 2 days ago | parent [-]

The inability to conceive of a country where these things would happen and you would have no idea that it had ever happened...and, perhaps more importantly, wouldn't care that you didn't know.

miroljub 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, but China can't arrest me if they don't like what they see in my data.

USA and its vassals can.