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maplethorpe 5 hours ago

This is good PR for them. They get to tweet about how scary and powerful their models are in the lead up to their IPO.

andix 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

This just made any closed LLM a huge supply chain risk. Everybody was aware of this possibility, but now it actually happened. It's like having nuclear weapons vs. firing a nuclear weapon.

Especially outside the US customers are going to be very hesitant to keep adopting LLMs from US companies.

alephnerd 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Especially outside the US customers are going to be very hesitant to keep adopting LLMs from US companies.

Not really. There aren't any other choices, and the PRC also heavily utilizes export controls [0].

This is why sovereign AI has become important, as can be seen with EU NatSec uses cases tending to use Mistral [1] and Indian governments starting to use Sarvam [2].

That said, for most commercial usecases, older generations of Opus as well as enterprise grade GPT and Gemini are fairly good.

The distilled OSS models are alright for hobbyists but if you have actually used unrestricted and enterprise grade versions of Claude, Mythos, GPT, and Gemini (most hobbyists don't get access to these) you see how far behind the open weight models are.

Even in China, traditionally open minded models teams like Alibaba's Qwen are looking to become more restricted given the org changes [3].

Also, Corporate RFCs now demand final say on model used and depending on the geo, this can be a dealbreaker (eg. An American financial institution will absolutely blacklist a vendor if they use a Chinese model and same in reverse and European defense vendors mandate sovereign EU models depending on the opportunity).

[0] - https://www.allbrightlaw.com/EN/10475/f9d4055e47e81afb.aspx

[1] - https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/mistral-defen...

[2] - https://www.sarvam.ai/blogs/partnerships-with-indian-states

[3] - https://www.ft.com/content/b39da303-3188-447b-8b65-3dd8dad8b...

jchw 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The PRC also heavily utilizes export controls

Matters not for open weight models, no?

> if you have actually used unrestricted and enterprise grade versions of Claude, Mythos, GPT, and Gemini you see how far behind the open weight models are.

I really do feel like DeepSeek V4 Pro is often better than current Sonnet is, in the general case.

Opus 4.7 is a solid step above Sonnet, and Fable was a solid step above Opus 4.7. I've only had Fable for a few days, obviously, but I was decently impressed after Opus 4.8 being a downright disappointment for me (it's just too buggy; I had it go out of control 3 separate times on things Opus 4.7 never had any trouble with.) I still ran into limitations. It's not world-endingly great.

So, based on that, I think DeepSeek V4 Pro is, ignoring multi-modal capabilities, about a couple solid steps behind. Assuming model iteration will continue to decelerate, especially as Anthropic heads into IPO, I'm guessing that DeepSeek will probably be able to strike back with something further along. Of course we'll see how able and willing they are to stay open weight, but they've done well so far so, no reason to doubt them at the moment.

(There are some models that claim to be ahead of DeepSeek V4 Pro. I've tried some of them and really not been that impressed. Maybe it's a me issue.)

Now I reckon that most people just simply don't really need Mythos/Fable for most of what they do and using Mythos/Fable tokens in place of Sonnet-tier models would not make any sense. At my job we already mostly just use Sonnet as it is. I'm sure there is some cutting-edge research where you want the absolute best model available and sure, in that case, you're stuck with Anthropic for the moment.

But is that really everyone? After all, while Mythos was dominating the hype cycles, quite a lot of impressive LLM-assisted CVEs dropped that were not linked to Mythos.

andix 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There aren't any other choices

This might be the trigger for creating other choices. Not within a month, but things can change quickly.

tim-projects 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I randomly received an email from chatgpt saying my account was suspended. I appealed it and got it back - I hadn't used it in months.

But this has left a sour taste in my mouth. What if I relied on it for mission critical business processes?

This is potentially far worse than say a gmail account going down. It's the stuff of nightmare fuel.

Not having an alternative is a massive risk for any business.

alephnerd 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The issue is compute is constraint and export controlled, as is even knowhow in model training.

Edit: Can't reply

> Time to build fabs back in the states

We are and did. The Intel and TSMC fabs have already started 2nm fabrication.

bushido 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Compute was constrained. There is a lot happening, especially with chinese chips which currently points to a massive upcoming increase in non-US capacity.

ex: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ekndZwyOzo

alephnerd 5 hours ago | parent [-]

They are export controlled in most cases as well.

Also, the EU, Japan, SK, ASEAN, and India are not supportive of using Chinese tech after China export controlled rare earth exports last years [0].

Software supply chain regulations also make utilizing Chinese software risky for ExChina players and make using ExChina tech risky for Chinese players.

Expect to see RFCs now demanding visibility into what models are used and right of refusal - this is already the norm in F1000s. Similar ones are likely to arise in the EU as well with some of the upcoming industrial policy changes being proposed.

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-is-making-it-harde...

jazzyjackson 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you’re talking about TSMC Arizona they aren’t fabricating at N3 until end of next year at the earliest, N2 isn’t slated until “end of decade”. I think they’re manufacturing Blackwell there which is N4 / 4nm

Source: https://www.tsmc.com/static/abouttsmcaz/index.htm

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/semiconductors/nv...

5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
huntertwo 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not sure if this is true - I’ve been using mimo and it’s great

avaer 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They've already been labeled a "supply chain risk". Probably not a good idea to upset the regulators more. Maybe tomorrow Opus will be declared too dangerous for the public.

mahkeiro 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It mainly shows that this is another US companies that cannot be trusted by anyone outside of the US because of the US government.

chrismsimpson 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Cratering their user base outside of the US is hardly going to be good for their IPO.

palisade 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You're mistaken, this is a cratering of the userbase inside and outside of the US. The ban is on any foreigner whether abroad or living in the USA, so Anthropic has no choice but to completely shut down access to the model for the whole world including the US.

Their IPO is well and truly fucked now. This also means no other frontier lab in the US is allowed to exceed Opus 4.8 capabilities.

If you're a luddite or a decel you should literally be dancing in the streets right now. And, if you're a tankie you'll be dancing right next to them. And, if you were hoping for a Star Trek-like future, you just adjusted your timeline for the worse.

SepiaSapient 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>this is a cratering of the userbase inside and outside of the US.

Is it really? It was limited release anyway (like hypebeast merch!). Everything people are gonna talk about for a week is gonna be about how Fable was so cool that it got banned by the feds. If it's just the Trump admin being the Trump admin, Amodei is just gonna have to pay up as a racket / marketing expense. Or it is like I'm suspecting and this was pre-bribed and the ban is kabuki theater.

>And, if you were hoping for a Star Trek-like future, you just adjusted your timeline for the worse.

The funny thing is that solar and batteries advancements are actually this, not LLMs, but your framing kinda fits anyways.

SXX 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> The funny thing is that solar and batteries advancements are actually this

No no no, dont say it here. Green tech is now owned by China that wants to destroy everything.

And US bigtech working hard to save everything by building safe controlled super AI that will burn all the energy it has access to.

untcarcandy 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

idiotsecant 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is just a case of not greasing the right palms. Some contributions will be made and this goes away.

bag_boy 4 hours ago | parent [-]

“Anthropic buys 75% of Truth Social’s ad inventory”

256BitChris 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Funny. But unfortunately this is well within the realm of possibilities these days.

Caius-Cosades 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it now? From a company's point of view, does it really matter that some expensive tool is allegedly good or not if it's reliability/availability is poor and subject to completely arbitrary and unpredictable change?

karmasimida 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Incorrect. Heavy government regulation means it is limited how they can sell this model and to whom.

ks2048 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It would be if it was rationally tied to the strength of the model. More likely, it’s simply the government deciding who can compete.

Salgat 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It also signals that Anthropic is a bad choice if you need stable access to their product outside the US.

adgjlsfhk1 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it may be really good pr, but it's really bad for their IPO. If their market for future models is usa only, their potential revenue is cut by 50% at least. (and it's even worse because it means Europe, India, and China will all have companies making their own models that anthropic needs to stay ahead of)

klardotsh 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Another sibling thread already called this out, but mentioning here: it's not "USA only", it's "US citizens only" (and I'm not entirely sure how dual-citizenship interacts with this, but I assume you can't sell to them, either, since they are by definition also foreign nationals). A private company only being able to do business with folks they can verify are solely US citizens (who themselves are also willing to submit verification of said citizenship to a private company), has a relatively small pool of potential users.

And so if this policy holds, Anthropic has functionally had Fable killed by government intervention, and in a logically consistent world, this would imply all other US-based AI labs may also never exceed existing (read: Opus) capabilities.

What interesting times we live in, indeed.

STELLANOVA 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Regarding the dual-citizenship, you are wrong to assume that. To US government you are US citizen and that is all that matters, even if you have 5 different citizenships government and justice system don't care, you need to follow the US laws and can't cherry pick what you want. Regarding users, for any of this big 3 (Alphabet, Anthropic, OpenAI) only important customers are enterprises, not individual users.

drevil-v2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It kills their entire Enterprise market which is a far bigger deal than just consumer KYC headaches

STELLANOVA an hour ago | parent [-]

I don't think so, most of enterprise customers are US based companies. They will basically give Mythos to US citizens in R&D while others will use Opus. I hope this is not the actual intent.

idiotsecant 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And they don't have to actually serve expensive model compute and this all goes away once they contribute to the right charitable organizations and patriotic causes funneling money to the right people.

This is quite clearly corporate capture of the white house by a competitor influencing policy, but it's hard to imagine something that plays more into anthropic's hand. They now own the model that was so good the US government made them shut it off.

agentic_vector 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Indeed, this affects way more than just Anthropic.

5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
taytus 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's the opposite. Who would want to buy shares in a company that's been flagged as a supply chain risk?

SepiaSapient 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The secret ingredient is public and brazen bribery, and the one thing that Anthropic doesn't lack is cash.

paulddraper 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

But what happens when they fix whatever's making it a risk?

nozzlegear 4 hours ago | parent [-]

They'll walk away with two black eyes from the US government, and we'll all be left to speculate on when the next sucker punch will land

dpkirchner 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"Our models are so good the government decides whether or you get access -- so you better not depend on them!"

philip1209 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Not a commodity”

nandomrumber 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]